Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: gose without sour mash?  (Read 3955 times)

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4507
gose without sour mash?
« on: September 20, 2016, 08:48:15 am »
I know almost nothing about brewing sour beers.

I have been enjoying some of the more 'mild' commercial offerings that have been released here recently. The ones I enjoy most are more tart than sour. I am curious if I could brew something similar with forgoing a sour mash. A pseudo gose if you will...

How far below 5.2 can I effectively go with my mash pH before seeing adverse effects? Can I add lactic acid post fermentation? I get that this may just be a horrible idea  :o
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Adjunct Vienna, Golden Stout, Honey Lager
Fermenting: IPA
Up Next: mexi lager, Germerican pale ale

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3777
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 09:06:23 am »
Lactic acid additions can be made pre-boil, post-boil or post-fermentation. The problem that the distilled lactic acid in that volume tends to have a bland or chemical flavor that I find unpleasant although if your target is low 4 to upper 3 on the ph scale it might not be enough to notice the flavor.

Best alternative would be to kettle sour using a good lactobacillus source.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4507
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 09:11:39 am »
Lactic acid additions can be made pre-boil, post-boil or post-fermentation. The problem that the distilled lactic acid in that volume tends to have a bland or chemical flavor that I find unpleasant although if your target is low 4 to upper 3 on the ph scale it might not be enough to notice the flavor.

Best alternative would be to kettle sour using a good lactobacillus source.

Thanks. I will have to do some research on kettle souring...
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Adjunct Vienna, Golden Stout, Honey Lager
Fermenting: IPA
Up Next: mexi lager, Germerican pale ale

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4724
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2016, 09:30:35 am »
I agree that the addition of actual lactic acid to a finished beer can give a lackluster tartness that just isn't the same as actual Lactobacillus will do to the beer.  But... perhaps that is what you like?!  You won't know if you don't try it I suppose.  Why not take a pint of your favorite pilsner or helles, and add a couple drops of acid to it and see how you like the taste?!  Maybe it works for you.

FWIW, I find 95% of commercial gose beers to be WAY oversalted.  Go easy on the salt, unless you like drinking seawater.  Apparently tens of thousands of people do enjoy them, so, what do I know.   >:(
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2016, 09:38:21 am »
O agree with the kettle souring.  A lot of people use probiotics as their lacto source.  Around here, brewers use Nancy's Yogurt, which has a huge live lactobacillus population.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4507
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 10:10:58 am »
Anyone have a good link describing the process?

It sounds more involved than I likely have time for. I should probably just wait to attempt this and brew a wheat beer with some salt, limited lactic acid, and lime juice added post fermentation. I thought I saw that I should probably shoot for 250 ppm Cl in the finished beer. Is that reasonable?
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Adjunct Vienna, Golden Stout, Honey Lager
Fermenting: IPA
Up Next: mexi lager, Germerican pale ale

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 10:13:04 am »
Anyone have a good link describing the process?

It sounds more involved than I likely have time for. I should probably just wait to attempt this and brew a wheat beer with some salt, limited lactic acid, and lime juice added post fermentation. I thought I saw that I should probably shoot for 250 ppm Cl in the finished beer. Is that reasonable?

Are you on Facebook?  If so, join the Milk the Funk group.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4507
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2016, 10:18:53 am »
I agree that the addition of actual lactic acid to a finished beer can give a lackluster tartness that just isn't the same as actual Lactobacillus will do to the beer.  But... perhaps that is what you like?!  You won't know if you don't try it I suppose.  Why not take a pint of your favorite pilsner or helles, and add a couple drops of acid to it and see how you like the taste?!  Maybe it works for you.

FWIW, I find 95% of commercial gose beers to be WAY oversalted.  Go easy on the salt, unless you like drinking seawater.  Apparently tens of thousands of people do enjoy them, so, what do I know.   >:(

I have been enjoying Avery's El Gose of late which seems to be the sweet spot for me on salinity. They add lime to it as well which I enjoy.
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Adjunct Vienna, Golden Stout, Honey Lager
Fermenting: IPA
Up Next: mexi lager, Germerican pale ale

Offline hoser

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2016, 10:46:09 am »
O agree with the kettle souring.  A lot of people use probiotics as their lacto source.  Around here, brewers use Nancy's Yogurt, which has a huge live lactobacillus population.

This^^^^^

Offline brewinhard

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3272
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2016, 10:59:53 am »
You could always try out a healthy dose of acidulated malt in your mash to get you part of the way there. Maybe a combo of that AND lactic acid might be better than just lactic acid alone (which I feel almost has a buttery, diacetyl-like note to it). I have used upwards of 2 pounds of acid malt in a 5 gallon batch for a notable tartness.

Offline pete b

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4134
  • Barre, Ma
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2016, 11:51:52 am »
This gose without saying...
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline piersonm

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Dont judge a beer by its color.
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 12:28:02 pm »
try adding some acidualted malt
He who buys good ale buys nothing else.

Offline Steve Ruch

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1743
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2016, 03:15:02 pm »
O agree with the kettle souring.  A lot of people use probiotics as their lacto source.  Around here, brewers use Nancy's Yogurt, which has a huge live lactobacillus population.

How does that work? A cup of yogurt into the mash? boil? fermenting vessel?
I love to go swimmin'
with hairy old women

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11326
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2016, 03:21:09 pm »
we did our first kettle sour Gose this year. Turned out great (for the kids who like that crap, not me. Yuck). We cooled the kettle down to 80 and pitched a Lacto culture from Wyeast. Let it sit 3 days until the pH hit 3.2. Was amazed at how fast the pH dropped.

Granted, this was on a 15 bbl batch so not sure how much faster or slower a 10 gallon batch would be. It would certainly be depending on how healthy your culture is and how warm you keep the lacto.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: gose without sour mash?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2016, 03:42:06 pm »
O agree with the kettle souring.  A lot of people use probiotics as their lacto source.  Around here, brewers use Nancy's Yogurt, which has a huge live lactobacillus population.

How does that work? A cup of yogurt into the mash? boil? fermenting vessel?

Goes in post boil.  Then you keep the wort warm for a few days.  At Oakshire, they do it last thing on Fri. since they don't work on weekends.  They leave the kettle and whirlpool full of warm wort.  Put in the yogurt, seal them with plastic wrap and close the lids.  By the time they come back on Mon. morning it's going great.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell