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Author Topic: Done with hefes  (Read 11881 times)

Offline zwiller

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2016, 09:50:30 am »
I don't think there is that one thing to a beer that makes it great. It's the right combination of good things. I.e. without great fermentation, lodo is useless.

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Agreed, but judging from the responses I see here, I'd wager most of us are doing most of the right things.  This is one of the main reasons I hang here. 
Sam
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2016, 09:51:01 am »
I don't think there is that one thing to a beer that makes it great. It's the right combination of good things. I.e. without great fermentation, lodo is useless.

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Agreed, but judging from the responses I see here, I'd wager most of us are doing most of the right things.  This is one of the main reasons I hang here. 


Agreed on all counts.
Jon H.

Offline chumley

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2016, 10:45:01 am »
My favorite hefe is Konig Ludwig weiss.  That's the beer I try to emulate, and the WY3333 seems to come closest to it.

On the subject of Eric Warner's books, his recipe for Himmel und Erde (I think it is the Kolsch book) is awesome.  Too bad my local butcher was forced by the USDA to quit making blood sausage.  :(

Offline zwiller

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2016, 03:53:17 pm »
Do you guys that read Warner get the impression he really liked the Huber Weiss (without saying it)?  Lots of pics/hints/etc.  Don't think we can get it stateside and it is actually one of the first places I intend to go once I get over there. 
Sam
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2016, 01:25:16 pm »
To me this style is dependent on the process.  A lager can't be made without a lagering method, and you can't develop it without it.  So with that said I am not an expert, I am not a professional.  However, I Love wheat beers and they comprise almost 70% of my brewing exp.
The Mash
Argue Hochkurz to Single/Double decoction I prefer a decoction.
So far my best wheat beer started in a change in my mashing technique.  In my opinion.  Developing 4-VG and F-Rest.  So doughing in low, doing a short protein rest, mashing low, decoction at minimum after 15mins in sacch rest, and a really hot mash out is the building blocks.  pH is also a driving factor - I shoot for 5.3 ending in ~4.2-4.3. 
The Boil
The proteins need to break down to give that perfect mouthfeel and need a more vigorous boil for a longer period of time.  Now that the boil is part of your boiling temp based on your altitude, mine is 210.9F so I have to boil for minimum 80 mins.  It is very vigorous boil for at least 30 mins total time, I have played around with different vigorous boils at different times, before and after hop additions that nature.  But anyway, this is all relative to how hardcore you want to take this hobby.  Keep that in mind, if this takes away from you enjoying your brewday or your beer - I don't think you should do it.

Pitchrate / fermentation
Is an argument based on strain so that is harder to say imo and should be based on what you want.  A banana bomb/ a clove bomb/ a balanced masterpiece.  All enjoyable in my experience, so you take it where you want your beer to go.  I have seen arguments for the 0.5-0.75 pitchrate I have seen the 1.0-1.25 pitchrate. If open, I pitch at 65F and let it go where it goes for the first 3 days.  If closed I pitch at 72F and slowly drop it to 66F for the next 3 days and let it come back to 70F by the end of 7 days.  Those have been my favorites thus far, no one shunned me after trying either of those beers.  However it seemed to contradict everything I have read and heard on this forum.

I have hypothesized, and need to do more experiments isolating other variables and specific strains to find an official opinion of mine.  Most of these strains are pressure sensitive (to my knowledge) and need to be fermented open and in square fermentation vessels ~4-5" of wort.  skimmed and agitated every 12 hrs (see skim-the-scum) for the first 72 hrs. Before being closed off.  I do like the idea of taking a page from the winemakers book and covering the vessel with cheese cloth.  In a true top cropping strain you should see 2-3 krausens and smell plenty of wonderful esters early on, and the phenols will come creeping through on the last 24hrs.  When I start to smell that balance I prefer I go ahead and transfer to a closed vessel and finish my brewing process.  Also I think the proper bottle conditioning aids in the complexity.  I am beginning to think that wort/dme priming is better than using any sugars.  I assume it to provide better nutrients and complex sugars for the yeast to work on that help keep those complex flavors in the bottle.  But like I said, this is just my opinion and I need to back it up with a "proper" controlled experiment.  I will recommend and continue to recommend the wlp351/380 strains they are my favorite thus far.  And I am 44 batches of hefe/dunkel/weizen/bocks down
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2016, 01:30:02 pm »
To me this style is dependent on the process.  A lager can't be made without a lagering method, and you can't develop it without it.  So with that said I am not an expert, I am not a professional.  However, I Love wheat beers and they comprise almost 70% of my brewing exp.
The Mash
Argue Hochkurz to Single/Double decoction I prefer a decoction.
So far my best wheat beer started in a change in my mashing technique.  In my opinion.  Developing 4-VG and F-Rest.  So doughing in low, doing a short protein rest, mashing low, decoction at minimum after 15mins in sacch rest, and a really hot mash out is the building blocks.  pH is also a driving factor - I shoot for 5.3 ending in ~4.2-4.3. 
The Boil
The proteins need to break down to give that perfect mouthfeel and need a more vigorous boil for a longer period of time.  Now that the boil is part of your boiling temp based on your altitude, mine is 210.9F so I have to boil for minimum 80 mins.  It is very vigorous boil for at least 30 mins total time, I have played around with different vigorous boils at different times, before and after hop additions that nature.  But anyway, this is all relative to how hardcore you want to take this hobby.  Keep that in mind, if this takes away from you enjoying your brewday or your beer - I don't think you should do it.

Pitchrate / fermentation
Is an argument based on strain so that is harder to say imo and should be based on what you want.  A banana bomb/ a clove bomb/ a balanced masterpiece.  All enjoyable in my experience, so you take it where you want your beer to go.  I have seen arguments for the 0.5-0.75 pitchrate I have seen the 1.0-1.25 pitchrate. If open, I pitch at 65F and let it go where it goes for the first 3 days.  If closed I pitch at 72F and slowly drop it to 66F for the next 3 days and let it come back to 70F by the end of 7 days.  Those have been my favorites thus far, no one shunned me after trying either of those beers.  However it seemed to contradict everything I have read and heard on this forum.

I have hypothesized, and need to do more experiments isolating other variables and specific strains to find an official opinion of mine.  Most of these strains are pressure sensitive (to my knowledge) and need to be fermented open and in square fermentation vessels ~4-5" of wort.  skimmed and agitated every 12 hrs (see skim-the-scum) for the first 72 hrs. Before being closed off.  I do like the idea of taking a page from the winemakers book and covering the vessel with cheese cloth.  In a true top cropping strain you should see 2-3 krausens and smell plenty of wonderful esters early on, and the phenols will come creeping through on the last 24hrs.  When I start to smell that balance I prefer I go ahead and transfer to a closed vessel and finish my brewing process.  Also I think the proper bottle conditioning aids in the complexity.  I am beginning to think that wort/dme priming is better than using any sugars.  I assume it to provide better nutrients and complex sugars for the yeast to work on that help keep those complex flavors in the bottle.  But like I said, this is just my opinion and I need to back it up with a "proper" controlled experiment.  I will recommend and continue to recommend the wlp351/380 strains they are my favorite thus far.  And I am 44 batches of hefe/dunkel/weizen/bocks down

Which breweries use square fermenters for wheat beers. The ones I have seen are round. Interested.
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2016, 02:09:28 pm »
Anchor used to be squares, jolly pumpkin used squares for his awarded open ferm beers... I do know that many breweries have switched from open squares to cylindrical fermenters.  The squares used to be called brewships if memory serve me right...

Arielle is another

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 02:16:49 pm by JJeffers09 »
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2016, 02:31:13 pm »
Now that I do some more googl-e-ducation the Yorkshire square-style open fermenters are now "Round" but I believe it is the same concept isn't it?  I do remember reading on the method in Brew like a monk, but I don't have the book handy, it's in a box somewhere.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2016, 02:35:37 pm »
Anchor used to be squares, jolly pumpkin used squares for his awarded open ferm beers... I do know that many breweries have switched from open squares to cylindrical fermenters.  The squares used to be called brewships if memory serve me right...

Arielle is another

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I have seem more than a few square ones for ales. There are many square ones in Bavaria for lagers.

Wheat beers? It depends. Older breweries may have square. Newer breweries  are usually round with the chute that allows for the yeast to be cropped after braunhefe removal. What makes the new round ones attractive is they are easier to CIP.

http://www.sierranevada.com/blog/north-carolina-brewery/open-tanks-and-free-range-flavors

There were open round wheat beer fermenters at Schönram and Ayinger. Ayinger does lagers in closed conicals.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 02:37:23 pm by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline dzlater

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2016, 06:43:08 am »
  I am curious, what difference does the shape of the fermenter make? Why would yeast behave differntly in a square or round fermenter?
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2016, 09:09:37 am »
I'm guessing that the difference comes from the depths of the fermenters. Modern cylindroconicals can have significant depth, while the straight side walls of a square fermenter make it structurally more difficult to make them deep. The 1000 bbl cylindroconical fermenters I saw at Sweetwater in Atlanta were probably over 40 ft tall.
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Offline santoch

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2016, 11:50:32 am »
... and to finish Martin's excellent explanation, the increased  depth causes increased pressure on the yeast.
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Offline dzlater

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2016, 05:07:46 pm »
I'm guessing that the difference comes from the depths of the fermenters. Modern cylindroconicals can have significant depth, while the straight side walls of a square fermenter make it structurally more difficult to make them deep. The 1000 bbl cylindroconical fermenters I saw at Sweetwater in Atlanta were probably over 40 ft tall.
So it's the depth not the shape. At the homebrew level I am guessing it wouldn't matter.
A 6 gallon round bucket vs. a 6 gallon square bucket would make no difference?
Dan S. from NJ

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2016, 07:24:22 pm »
I'm guessing that the difference comes from the depths of the fermenters. Modern cylindroconicals can have significant depth, while the straight side walls of a square fermenter make it structurally more difficult to make them deep. The 1000 bbl cylindroconical fermenters I saw at Sweetwater in Atlanta were probably over 40 ft tall.
I have seen a few SS lined fermenters that were fairly deep, ~ 6 feet or more, but those were in Concrete and tile surrounding structures that support the flat sections. Round fermenters will have more uniform circulation than rectangular/square ones.

Cleaning a round fermenters is easier with a hood that lowers down, and has a clean in place nozzle to hit the surfaces uniformly. That is what Ayinger had.

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Offline santoch

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Re: Done with hefes
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2016, 09:33:34 pm »
So it's the depth not the shape. At the homebrew level I am guessing it wouldn't matter.
A 6 gallon round bucket vs. a 6 gallon square bucket would make no difference?
Exactly.
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