Author Topic: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...  (Read 1610 times)

Offline dilluh98

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Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« on: September 29, 2016, 02:31:35 PM »
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/extreme-temperature-and-pressure-remove-an-entire-step-of-the-beer-brewing-process/?utm_medium=N/A&utm_campaign=nova_next&linkId=29255090

Ummm, I don't see how this cuts out the boil step. Am I missing something or is this likely bad reporting or miscommunication of some sort?

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 02:42:39 PM »
I saw that too. I doubt it makes better beer or saves any money or time. But who knows.

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Offline denny

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 04:02:54 PM »
Yeah, that's gonna be cheap....
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Offline dilluh98

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 04:40:01 PM »
Yeah, that's gonna be cheap....

That was my second thought. Micro-cavitation propellors just seem like they'd be costly compared the price of a grain mill + auger system. Maybe Major can chime in on up front cost and energy expenditure to run a mill + auger for a brewery.

I doubt this is going to "revolutionize" the beer making world.

Offline c0utz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 06:43:37 AM »
Not to mention that cavitation tends to be BAD for impellers, propellers, augers, etc. Can you imagine having to replace your SS prop after forking out whatever ridiculous cost is associated with that system? Check out cavitation erosion on a Google Image search and you'll see what I mean. Interesting to read but I doubt very cost efficient in the long run, and especially not the short run...

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 11:06:15 AM »
Not to mention that cavitation tends to be BAD for impellers, propellers, augers, etc. Can you imagine having to replace your SS prop after forking out whatever ridiculous cost is associated with that system? Check out cavitation erosion on a Google Image search and you'll see what I mean. Interesting to read but I doubt very cost efficient in the long run, and especially not the short run...

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First, welcome to the forum. As an engineer you learn that cavitation should be avoided, as it is destructive.

There were a few articles in a local beer publication about using it to extract IBUs. I don't know how damage is avoided in the system, but I will link to the manufacturer and you can read all about it. It looks like they use local pressure drop in chambers to get cavitation. Worth some reading.

http://hydrodynamics.com/cavitation-technology/

http://hydrodynamics.com/markets/food-and-beverage/hop-extraction/

http://digital.zoompubs.com/publication/?i=240423&article_id=1894997&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5#{"issue_id":240423,"view":"articleBrowser","article_id":"1894997"}

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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 11:54:58 AM »
Best be doing that in a vacuum! Oxidation... Oxidation everywhere! :)

Offline c0utz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2016, 12:33:44 PM »
Not to mention that cavitation tends to be BAD for impellers, propellers, augers, etc. Can you imagine having to replace your SS prop after forking out whatever ridiculous cost is associated with that system? Check out cavitation erosion on a Google Image search and you'll see what I mean. Interesting to read but I doubt very cost efficient in the long run, and especially not the short run...

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First, welcome to the forum. As an engineer you learn that cavitation should be avoided, as it is destructive.

There were a few articles in a local beer publication about using it to extract IBUs. I don't know how damage is avoided in the system, but I will link to the manufacturer and you can read all about it. It looks like they use local pressure drop in chambers to get cavitation. Worth some reading.

http://hydrodynamics.com/cavitation-technology/

http://hydrodynamics.com/markets/food-and-beverage/hop-extraction/

http://digital.zoompubs.com/publication/?i=240423&article_id=1894997&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5#{"issue_id":240423,"view":"articleBrowser","article_id":"1894997"}
Ok so following the description and explanation on that first link my understanding is that since the cavitation stays within the cavities and does not graze along the metal surfaces, it limits erosion within the system...? Makes sense I guess.

Still seems a bit much though, even for a microbrewery.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2016, 12:42:11 PM »
Best be doing that in a vacuum! Oxidation... Oxidation everywhere! :)
Can you explain how the oxidation happens?
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2016, 12:58:17 PM »
Best be doing that in a vacuum! Oxidation... Oxidation everywhere! :)
Can you explain how the oxidation happens?
In this method or in general?  The article is titled "Micro-Bursts of Extreme Temperature and Pressure Remove an Entire Step of the Beer Brewing Process" Well in this case would be air, and heat. Heat accelerating the oxidation reactions, that you are "whipping" into the mash.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2016, 01:18:58 PM »
Best be doing that in a vacuum! Oxidation... Oxidation everywhere! :)
Can you explain how the oxidation happens?
In this method or in general?  The article is titled "Micro-Bursts of Extreme Temperature and Pressure Remove an Entire Step of the Beer Brewing Process" Well in this case would be air, and heat. Heat accelerating the oxidation reactions, that you are "whipping" into the mash.
Cavitation is localized boiling of the fluid when the vapor pressure of the fluid exceeds the fluid pressure. The bubbles created then collapse violently, causing the high pressure and temperature. I see the temperature aspect, but no air is required. If wort was Deoxigenated by boiling, and then run through the device, no air or O2. High temperature, really high local temperatures, yes.

I will ask the brewer at Witdh's Hat how he test beers tasted and held up.

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Offline scrap iron

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2016, 02:43:24 PM »
I worked for a large city water department for 25 years and can tell you cavitation is bad for pump surfaces, impellers and valves in the system. Even when opening valves after fixing a main leak we would try to adjust the flow to avoid it. I have seen first hand the damage to pumps and valves with pitting,missing pieces on the impeller and even holes drilled through the valve gate surface itself. When opening a valve with one sided pressure you can get cavitation. Wow, been retired 8 years and still retain some of this stuff.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2016, 02:59:52 PM »
I worked for a large city water department for 25 years and can tell you cavitation is bad for pump surfaces, impellers and valves in the system. Even when opening valves after fixing a main leak we would try to adjust the flow to avoid it. I have seen first hand the damage to pumps and valves with pitting,missing pieces on the impeller and even holes drilled through the valve gate surface itself. When opening a valve with one sided pressure you can get cavitation. Wow, been retired 8 years and still retain some of this stuff.
Hydraulic pumps can have problems on the inlet side, where the suction drops the local pressure below vapor pressure of the oil. Yeah, it is bad news in just about any situation.
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Offline c0utz

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Re: Forget LODO, cavitation is the new kid on the block...
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 12:47:04 AM »
I worked for a large city water department for 25 years and can tell you cavitation is bad for pump surfaces, impellers and valves in the system. Even when opening valves after fixing a main leak we would try to adjust the flow to avoid it. I have seen first hand the damage to pumps and valves with pitting,missing pieces on the impeller and even holes drilled through the valve gate surface itself. When opening a valve with one sided pressure you can get cavitation. Wow, been retired 8 years and still retain some of this stuff.
Hydraulic pumps can have problems on the inlet side, where the suction drops the local pressure below vapor pressure of the oil. Yeah, it is bad news in just about any situation.
Haha yes agreed. I'm in the fire protection industry myself and in fire pumps where you're generating a lot of pressure, very fast - it's bad new bears all around.

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Offline The Beerery

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