Author Topic: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing  (Read 84173 times)

The Beerery

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1005 on: January 24, 2017, 05:35:44 PM »
Hey Bryan, have you thought about doing this in a filter housing? That way it might minimize any stresses on the glass. I have had (apparently cheap) wine bottles implode on me when vac filling and the filter plugged up. It wasn't a whole lot of vacuum but enough stress the bottle walls. The filter housing would allow you to equalize the pressure inside and outside the bottle. Of course, it might be problematic to remove the housing to cap...

I have thought about it. I am not pulling a crazy vacuum and the issue with capping. But I am always open for improvement.

Offline narcout

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1006 on: January 24, 2017, 06:08:49 PM »
It may work, but in all honesty a vacuum pump is like $50 on amazon. You have to remember we use that sani-push/purge as a means for active yeast scavenging. That method is not good enough for finished beer.

I assume you could attach the vacuum pump to a keg disconnect?

I've been purging by filling the entire keg with Iodophor solution, pushing it all out with CO2, opening the bale to add priming solution while keeping the CO2 flowing into the keg, and then purging again by filling with CO2 and releasing through the PRV several times. 

Maybe I'd be better off replacing that last step (or augmenting it) with a vacuum pull.

I've also been thinking about an in-line dosing system for priming solution, but it wouldn't be a very convenient method given the volume of solution that's required, and it would probably introduce at least some air into the line.   
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The Beerery

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1007 on: January 24, 2017, 06:35:04 PM »
It may work, but in all honesty a vacuum pump is like $50 on amazon. You have to remember we use that sani-push/purge as a means for active yeast scavenging. That method is not good enough for finished beer.

I assume you could attach the vacuum pump to a keg disconnect?

I've been purging by filling the entire keg with Iodophor solution, pushing it all out with CO2, opening the bale to add priming solution while keeping the CO2 flowing into the keg, and then purging again by filling with CO2 and releasing through the PRV several times. 

Maybe I'd be better off replacing that last step (or augmenting it) with a vacuum pull.

I've also been thinking about an in-line dosing system for priming solution, but it wouldn't be a very convenient method given the volume of solution that's required, and it would probably introduce at least some air into the line.
Keg, grain bucket, mashtun  8)

I don't have any hard data points on the keg priming side, as any o2 ingress is eventually mopped up. But havng tried quite a few different methods probably a dozen times, It's ok. Spund is the gold standard, but I can understand how timing may not work.

Best way to do it would be the add priming solution. Hold keg at a 45 degree angle away from liquid out tube(as to not suck priming solution). Triple Vac/purge. Rack into it then closed loop.

Offline narcout

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1008 on: January 24, 2017, 06:54:42 PM »
Keg, grain bucket, mashtun  8)

I don't have any hard data points on the keg priming side, as any o2 ingress is eventually mopped up. But havng tried quite a few different methods probably a dozen times, It's ok. Spund is the gold standard, but I can understand how timing may not work.

Best way to do it would be the add priming solution. Hold keg at a 45 degree angle away from liquid out tube(as to not suck priming solution). Triple Vac/purge. Rack into it then closed loop.

I just bought a new mash tun with a recirculation port. I bet I could attach a keg post to the outside of the fitting and it would hold a vacuum.  Something to think about once I get it dialed in.

I understand the value of spunding, but it's difficult for me to get any uninterrupted time for the brewery during the week right now.  I'm sure I'll get to it sometime though.
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The Beerery

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1009 on: January 24, 2017, 07:37:03 PM »
Keg, grain bucket, mashtun  8)

I don't have any hard data points on the keg priming side, as any o2 ingress is eventually mopped up. But havng tried quite a few different methods probably a dozen times, It's ok. Spund is the gold standard, but I can understand how timing may not work.

Best way to do it would be the add priming solution. Hold keg at a 45 degree angle away from liquid out tube(as to not suck priming solution). Triple Vac/purge. Rack into it then closed loop.

I just bought a new mash tun with a recirculation port. I bet I could attach a keg post to the outside of the fitting and it would hold a vacuum.  Something to think about once I get it dialed in.

I understand the value of spunding, but it's difficult for me to get any uninterrupted time for the brewery during the week right now.  I'm sure I'll get to it sometime though.

When I get home tonight I will snap a pic and show you my system purging setup.

Offline coolman26

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1010 on: January 24, 2017, 08:00:08 PM »
I'm also curious how it compares to something like a beer gun.  Do you have any measured data on how bad the results are for those "blow purge" and fill systems?

I do, beer gun is at about .4-.6ppm DO. Maximum Bottling limit is .15ppm. At that rate(.4-.6) you will see oxidation results in about a week or less.
Hardly makes a beer gun worth the $$.
Look forward to your results.


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Jeff B

Offline Kutaka

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1011 on: January 24, 2017, 08:04:55 PM »

Hardly makes a beer gun worth the $$.
Look forward to your results.


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A bottling wand introduces a lot more DO than a gun.

Offline coolman26

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1012 on: January 24, 2017, 08:09:08 PM »
I get that, but for bottling for long term I'd rather bottle prime. I hardly ever bottle anymore. Competition beers would be nice if you could get good shelf life.


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Jeff B

Offline Kutaka

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1013 on: January 24, 2017, 08:27:41 PM »
I get that, but for bottling for long term I'd rather bottle prime. I hardly ever bottle anymore. Competition beers would be nice if you could get good shelf life.


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Carbonating with yeast and a bunch of fresh o2 in the bottle will reduce the o2 by less than 50%.  If you carbonate with yeast and fill with a bottle gun, there will be a lot less o2 because a lot less o2 is introduced compared to a wand.

So there is a reason to use a gun vs a wand.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1014 on: January 24, 2017, 10:28:06 PM »
I'm also curious how it compares to something like a beer gun.  Do you have any measured data on how bad the results are for those "blow purge" and fill systems?

I do, beer gun is at about .4-.6ppm DO. Maximum Bottling limit is .15ppm. At that rate(.4-.6) you will see oxidation results in about a week or less.
Hardly makes a beer gun worth the $$.
Look forward to your results.


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My plan is to bottle condition, using a keg as a "bottling bucket". Purge keg, add primings, rack beer, purge and fill the bottles. Should work fine for British ales, and eventually I'd like to move on to spunding for hefeweizen.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

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Offline narcout

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1015 on: January 26, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
When I get home tonight I will snap a pic and show you my system purging setup.

That'd be cool but no rush.  From the product description, the inlet port is a 1/4" flare, so that shouldn't pose any issues.

Do you think that 1/4 HP model is strong enough for a keg vacuum/purge?
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Offline natebrews

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1016 on: January 28, 2017, 02:09:15 PM »
This is a question for those using AA and SMB.  Have you ever noticed any flavor that you would attribute to the ascorbic?  I have one batch that I did with the blend (hoppy pale ale) and it has an odd chemically taste to it in the "far aftertaste".  By that, I mean after I swallow it I get kind of a chemically thing on on my tongue and throat that lasts for a long time. 

The recipe is basically the same as others I have made but this time I used different hops (zythos, azacca, and el dorado), but I haven't encountered this before.  I'm curious if the AA could be causing this to happen (directly or indirectly), but it seems unlikely. 

For reference, I used about 35ppm SMB and 25ppm of AA, assuming I didn't screw up the calculation.

(I hope this thread doesn't die given the kerfuffle going on in some other threads)
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Offline stpug

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1017 on: January 28, 2017, 02:59:30 PM »
This is a question for those using AA and SMB.  Have you ever noticed any flavor that you would attribute to the ascorbic?  I have one batch that I did with the blend (hoppy pale ale) and it has an odd chemically taste to it in the "far aftertaste".  By that, I mean after I swallow it I get kind of a chemically thing on on my tongue and throat that lasts for a long time. 

The recipe is basically the same as others I have made but this time I used different hops (zythos, azacca, and el dorado), but I haven't encountered this before.  I'm curious if the AA could be causing this to happen (directly or indirectly), but it seems unlikely. 

For reference, I used about 35ppm SMB and 25ppm of AA, assuming I didn't screw up the calculation.

(I hope this thread doesn't die given the kerfuffle going on in some other threads)

I'll be paying special attention to this as I've just brewed my first beer using a 50/50 blend (20/20ppm for me).  I certainly didn't taste anything in the wort but it was pretty bitter and hoppy (ipa) anyway, so that may have hidden something.  It'll probably be a week or more before I know.

Offline narvin

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1018 on: January 28, 2017, 11:09:24 PM »
This is a question for those using AA and SMB.  Have you ever noticed any flavor that you would attribute to the ascorbic?  I have one batch that I did with the blend (hoppy pale ale) and it has an odd chemically taste to it in the "far aftertaste".  By that, I mean after I swallow it I get kind of a chemically thing on on my tongue and throat that lasts for a long time. 

The recipe is basically the same as others I have made but this time I used different hops (zythos, azacca, and el dorado), but I haven't encountered this before.  I'm curious if the AA could be causing this to happen (directly or indirectly), but it seems unlikely. 

For reference, I used about 35ppm SMB and 25ppm of AA, assuming I didn't screw up the calculation.


This is interesting.  I've only used SMB so far, but was planning on a mix for the next brew.  I know Bryan mentioned some caveats, so I was doing some digging and there are references to AA *increasing* oxidative reactions in the presence of Iron and Copper.

http://www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/fetch.php?id=64148

"Ascorbic acid on metabite treated beers increased the oxidation of
polyphenols [via the Fenton reaction/copper] and increased the sulphite
oxidation 5X"

Both the Bamforth paper and the one from Belgium were looking at post fermentation (cold side) treatment.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 11:12:53 PM by narvin »
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Offline natebrews

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1019 on: January 29, 2017, 12:11:43 AM »
Something I didn't mention was that my additions were to the initial mash water (no sparge), and I didn't add any further down the line.  I do have a copper coil chiller, which probably isn't going to change in the very near future.

I just put a keg of Czech 12P Lager  with ultra hops in the keg fridge that also used the SMB/AA combination.  I took a small sample of it and didn't notice the same effect thing but it needs to lager and clear up. 

On the pale ale, it is something that lasts for a very long time (1hr+) after I drink it.  I tried it again today and only had maybe 1oz of it and still got the effect.  I'm beginning to wonder if I'm having some sort of reaction to something in it rather than just a flavor (maybe one of the hops or something).
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