[brewinhard]

I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Maybe it is indicating that polyphenols in mash = good for anti-oxidation, but polyphenols post boil = not good for stability?

[HoosierBrew]

I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Maybe it is indicating that polyphenols in mash = good for anti-oxidation, but polyphenols post boil = not good for stability?

Yeah, that's my assumption (or WAG).

[Big Monk]

Going though some Kunze this morning, this was in stuff I came across. Just some more food for thought!

So, what does this mean?  Obviously Brewtan B is a tannin.  But what excatly would cause polyphenol production in the mash?  Is there more information on this from Kunze?

I think Bryan was just pointing out a section of Kunze talking about hop oils as that was where the conversation had turned.

Here is the full excerpt:

[HoosierBrew]

Definitely makes more sense in that context.

[narvin]

Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.

[The Beerery]

Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.

Sorry guys I got tied up today. I meant to follow up with more context, thanks to monk for following up. I feel if mash hopping where a "thing" Kunze would talk about it, but I have yet to find anywhere he does. Maybe tomorrow I will post some more discussion points.

[The Beerery]

Got it, so mash hopping could provide some benefit, although if you're already going full low-O2 it may be a waste of money.

But a longer whirlpool for a hoppy beer may have protection from the large late additions.

Well you have to be careful of that, these excerpts are about boiling and thermal stress

Quickly pulled some excerpts out from Kunze

[bboy9000]

I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Count me as really confused.  I swear I read a paper that said the low oxygen environment prevents the staling  off-flavors but encourages haze formation and recommended PVPP  to be added when limiting oxygen exposure in brewing to counter that effect.  This is  why I want the science behind it.  If I have the science I can make informed decisions on LODO. There have to be readily available sources not costing the price of two brand new italian made conry kegs. 

[Big Monk]

I'm confused, too. Polyclar late in the boil is said to remove haze causing polyphenols which helps flavor stability. Scratching my head.



Edit - Of course Polyclar is added late in boil and not in the mash.

Count me as really confused.  I swear I read a paper that said the low oxygen environment prevents the staling  off-flavors but encourages haze formation and recommended PVPP  to be added when limiting oxygen exposure in brewing to counter that effect.  This is  why I want the science behind it.  If I have the science I can make informed decisions on LODO. There have to be readily available sources not costing the price of two brand new italian made conry kegs.

I cannot quote a specific paper or section from Kunze off the top of my head (although I'm sure he discusses it),  but I can say with certainty, given the last 6 months or so that I have been corresponding with Bryan, that I have never seen anything but clear beer.

It sounds like what you are describing, if true, would be mitigated by utilizing good process techniques.

EDIT: a quick text search through Kunze yielded some 20+ hits on the word haze. All mitigation strategies were process based so I'd say Low O2 alone would not be a main contributor. Things like malt crop, malting, pH management, enzymatic action, conversion, etc. have much more to do with it.

[The Beerery]

In my 200+ batches of low oxygen brewing, I have never encountered hazy beer..
Here are some photos of mash, boil, pre-yeast pitch and finished. I only add whirfloc, to the boil.

Mash:


Pre-boil


Boil:


Pre- yeast pitching:


Finished

[zwiller]

Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome. 

[Big Monk]

Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome.

What is your evaporation rate? And preboil volume?

I would say fine tuning evaporation % is preferable to decreasing boil time.

[The Beerery]

I would say fine tuning evaporation % is preferable to decreasing boil time.

I would agree with that as well.

[dilluh98]

Just chiming to report that I think I found a slight improvement in malt character when simply doing a 30m boil rather than 60m.  That has to be one of the easiest things to try in the LO playbook.  I did it solely for time savings but the improvement was most welcome.

Wasn't Denny singing the praises of an IPA he had at a homebrew meeting that was 30 min mash and 30 min boil? I think evaporation rate is key more so than time but I don't see a problem with 30 min boil.

[zwiller]

Touche'.  60m boil off rate was 15% on average.  Slightly weather dependent in the garage.   30m is clocking in well at half that and I am hitting volumes accurately.  I have been mashing 30m a few years now.