[coolman26]

The insight is working so far. W/O a DO meter you have to rely on others experience. Thanks again


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[brewinhard]

The insight is working so far. W/O a DO meter you have to rely on others experience. Thanks again


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Any chance you have been incorporating Brewtan B doses into your mash and kettle to limit carryover into the fermenter from copper usage?

[coolman26]

The insight is working so far. W/O a DO meter you have to rely on others experience. Thanks again


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Any chance you have been incorporating Brewtan B doses into your mash and kettle to limit carryover into the fermenter from copper usage?

I have not, I figured my dosage would be too high considering my copper factory.


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[masaba]

I tried this method this morning.  It added a few hours to my brewday because I used the yeast method of de-oxygenating the mash water, but it really wasn't too hard for me to implement this.

I had the same experience others had.  Not only did I get no aroma from my mash, but the grains also felt extremely heavy in the mash tun.  Instead of the usual floating grains that were really easy to stir it instead felt like the grains were a big pile of clay stuck to the bottom of my tun.  This was my first time underletting my mash water, and I found that the grains didn't really need to be stirred.

The only real hiccup I had was that it took quite a while for my wort to come to a boil.  Something was going on with my propane burner, and it just wouldn't give the high-intensity flame that it usually does.  Will that cause a problem?  It probably took me about 45 minutes to bring it to a boil after mash out, and I didn't get much of a hot break like I do when my flame is roaring.

I am really excited about tasting this one.  It may be my own bias, but it did seem like the wort tasted brighter and sharper than usual when I tried it after mash out.  Regardless, it is always fun to try something new.

For anyone who's interested, I brewed a simple Belgian blonde ale:
11.5 lbs pilsner
0.5 lbs carapils
0.5 lbs aromatic
1 lb Belgian candi sugar

2 oz liberty (4%) First wort hop
0.75 oz hallertauer (4%) flame out

WLP 570 yeast

1.067 OG
~24 IBUs

[VictorBrew]

The only real hiccup I had was that it took quite a while for my wort to come to a boil.  Something was going on with my propane burner, and it just wouldn't give the high-intensity flame that it usually does.  Will that cause a problem?  It probably took me about 45 minutes to bring it to a boil after mash out, and I didn't get much of a hot break like I do when my flame is roaring.

Assuming you used enough NaMeta, you should be fine.  The primary concern is that as your wort sits in the kettle coming up to a boil, o2 is absorbed back into solution.  You can employ a cap (floating cake pan) to minimize that surface area, but even without that the NaMeta will play its role.

Be careful with a roaring flame and your lack of hot break could be pH related.

[masaba]

I have another question related to packaging as I think about kegging the beer that I made last week.  If I am going to naturally carbonate the beer in the keg, do I really need to worry about a closed transfer from fermenter to keg and/or spunding? 

The reason I ask is that someone showed that yeast de-oxygenates water very quickly (under 0.5 ppm in less than an hour, http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/).  If I transfer gently with perhaps 1-2 ppm of dissolved oxygen pickup, but then add sugar immediately to the keg, won't the oxygen be gone in at most an hour or so?  Will an hour of ~1-2 ppm O2 really cause staling issues at temperatures of ~60 degrees?

[brewinhard]

I have another question related to packaging as I think about kegging the beer that I made last week.  If I am going to naturally carbonate the beer in the keg, do I really need to worry about a closed transfer from fermenter to keg and/or spunding? 

The reason I ask is that someone showed that yeast de-oxygenates water very quickly (under 0.5 ppm in less than an hour, http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/).  If I transfer gently with perhaps 1-2 ppm of dissolved oxygen pickup, but then add sugar immediately to the keg, won't the oxygen be gone in at most an hour or so?  Will an hour of ~1-2 ppm O2 really cause staling issues at temperatures of ~60 degrees?

I cannot give you any exact numbers as I don't own a DO meter, but there are some ways around this that I have tried successfully when I have missed the spund.

You could try fermenter priming. Adding your priming sugar solution to your fermenter, allowing about 60-90 minutes for the yeast to kick in and start feeding on the sugars, then transfer the beer to your purged keg. With active scavenging yeast you run the best chance of decreasing oxygen pickup and maintaining what minimal levels of DO may be in the beer.

[hannabrew]

I'm interested in trying the LODO method but naturally have some questions as it relates to my setup that I was hoping you all could help with.  I apologize for the long post!

Quick background - I have a single tier 3 vessel system (HLT, cooler MLT, and BK) with a chugger pump (with priming valve).  I just received my new SS IC so there is no copper/brass in the system at all.  I brew mostly pale ales and IPAs. 

My questions are as follows:

1) At this point I only have Campden tablets but was planning on buying some powdered SMB.  But I keep hearing about the "Trifecta blend".  Is this something I would make myself or do some companies sell them pre-blended?  Which of these three would be best to start out with (Campden, SMB, Trifecta)?

2) After reading the PDF that Denny posted, I purchased some Brewtan B from ibrew though the more I've read up on things, that may have been a bit hasty...it seems that is best used if/when there is copper or other oxidizing metals in the mix.  Does it still play a role when using RO and all SS? 

3) I plan on making mash and lauter caps using cake pans that fit my vessels.  I assume I would still use the regular lid on my MLT on top of the mash cap to keep the heat in right?

4) My LHBS would likely let me condition my grains but I'm not exactly sure how to go about doing this.  I see spray bottles mentioned but what is the actual process?  I'm not seeing how a spray bottle would get all the grains wet without spreading them out.  Also, how would I determine the amount of SMB to dose the water with since it's such a small amount of water? 

5)  What do you guys use to "seal grains completely" after milling?

6) I really don't want to ruin a batch by having leftover sulfur compounds post-boil.  With that in mind, would it make sense to start with a really small dose at first like 25ppm?  It might not get all the O2 but it will certainly help.  I would be doing no-sparge FWIW. 

7) I use Bru'n Water...how should I account for the addition of ions via the LODO dosing?  I see the list that 100 ppm NaMeta has potential for 24 ppm Na etc but is there somewhere I can put that in the spreadsheet to balance out the numbers or do I just need to make sure the numbers are under on the spreadsheet knowing that the dosage will even them out?

8 ) I use beersmith for calculating my brewday and I'm trying to figure out my numbers for this simmering boil.  I see I should target 8-10% vaporization however that requires nearly halving what I had calculated as my boil off rate using a roiling boil.  Will lowering the heat to simmer really reduce the boil off rate that much?  I really don't want to have to use the partial lid method especially considering I'm reducing my boil to 60 minutes as well.

9) Normally once my boil is done, I whirlpool for about 30 minutes and then let everything settle before knocking out.  This goes against the LODO recommendation to cool as quickly as possible yet I can't imagine not whirlpooling my IPAs.  Is this going to negate all the hard work I've done above?

I have some questions on the cold side as well but I'll save those for another time. 

[stpug]

I'm interested in trying the LODO method but naturally have some questions as it relates to my setup that I was hoping you all could help with.  I apologize for the long post!

Quick background - I have a single tier 3 vessel system (HLT, cooler MLT, and BK) with a chugger pump (with priming valve).  I just received my new SS IC so there is no copper/brass in the system at all.  I brew mostly pale ales and IPAs. 

My questions are as follows:

1) At this point I only have Campden tablets but was planning on buying some powdered SMB.  But I keep hearing about the "Trifecta blend".  Is this something I would make myself or do some companies sell them pre-blended?  Which of these three would be best to start out with (Campden, SMB, Trifecta)?

Antioxin SBT is the premade stuff, but is hard to come by in the USA.  Outside the US, you may fair better.  You can make trifecta with SMB or KMB, Ascorbic Acid (lhbs usually has this), and Brewtan B at a ratio of 45/45/10.  The premade SBT actually uses Potassium Metabisulfite, and if I was making from scratch I would also use KMB instead of SMB.

2) After reading the PDF that Denny posted, I purchased some Brewtan B from ibrew though the more I've read up on things, that may have been a bit hasty...it seems that is best used if/when there is copper or other oxidizing metals in the mix.  Does it still play a role when using RO and all SS? 

It serves as an oxidative precursor binder and metal chelator.  Some metals can actually come from your water and/or malts, as well as the oxidative precursors.  From the ratio above you can see it's the least used of the three components of trifecta, but I think it's purpose is well served in the long-run.  Definitely not a waste of a purchase.

3) I plan on making mash and lauter caps using cake pans that fit my vessels.  I assume I would still use the regular lid on my MLT on top of the mash cap to keep the heat in right?

Yeah, all normal lids are still used.  For vetting the process, the mash/spargewater caps can be as simple as foil laid on the surface.  If you decide you like the process then you can invest more time/effort/money into something that you prefer, or you may find foil to be sufficient.

4) My LHBS would likely let me condition my grains but I'm not exactly sure how to go about doing this.  I see spray bottles mentioned but what is the actual process?  I'm not seeing how a spray bottle would get all the grains wet without spreading them out.  Also, how would I determine the amount of SMB to dose the water with since it's such a small amount of water? 

I don't dose the water for conditioning grain with anything - plain filtered water is what I use.  My grains are in a bucket so I spray spray spray, mix mix, repeat for 1-2 minutes; then I let it rest for 10 minutes to equalize the moisture across all grain husks.  The grain should NOT feel wet when you are done - perhaps slightly humid but definitely not wet.  As with many things in life, less is more because you can always try more on successive batches.

5)  What do you guys use to "seal grains completely" after milling?

I don't.  I just mill about 15 minutes before dough-in.  If you'll be waiting a day or more then simply bagging in a plastic bag should suffice like you normally would.

6) I really don't want to ruin a batch by having leftover sulfur compounds post-boil.  With that in mind, would it make sense to start with a really small dose at first like 25ppm?  It might not get all the O2 but it will certainly help.  I would be doing no-sparge FWIW. 

Definitely, yes.  Ales at 20-25ppm SMB is a good max; lagers can generally go higher to ~40ppm.  Also, try to pick a yeast strain that is known to not be so finicky with sulfites (1056/wlp001/us05 are all good choices for ales).  There is a list on lowoxygenbrewing.com that is a decent starting point.  I also do no-sparge, but I BIAB.

7) I use Bru'n Water...how should I account for the addition of ions via the LODO dosing?  I see the list that 100 ppm NaMeta has potential for 24 ppm Na etc but is there somewhere I can put that in the spreadsheet to balance out the numbers or do I just need to make sure the numbers are under on the spreadsheet knowing that the dosage will even them out?

From the dose you pick (e.g. 25ppm), you can safely assume that about 1/4 will be Na and 3/4 will be sulfate.  IOW, 6ppm Na and 19ppm sulfate.  Target about those values less than your desired concentrations (e.g. if you want 20ppm Na then target 13ppm in BruN, and if you want 150ppm SO4 then target 130ppm SO4 in BruN).

8 ) I use beersmith for calculating my brewday and I'm trying to figure out my numbers for this simmering boil.  I see I should target 8-10% vaporization however that requires nearly halving what I had calculated as my boil off rate using a roiling boil.  Will lowering the heat to simmer really reduce the boil off rate that much?  I really don't want to have to use the partial lid method especially considering I'm reducing my boil to 60 minutes as well.

This one can be tricky, and variable.  I would say just make your boil visually less vigorous, and brew like normal.  I suspect you'll have nearly the same boiloff in the end, but the differential between the heat source and wort will be greatly reduced which should not cause as much darkening of the wort throughout the boil.  Keep track of the volumes/boiloff this time and it will help you gauge better next time.  You can work on dialing this one in over several batches.

9) Normally once my boil is done, I whirlpool for about 30 minutes and then let everything settle before knocking out.  This goes against the LODO recommendation to cool as quickly as possible yet I can't imagine not whirlpooling my IPAs.  Is this going to negate all the hard work I've done above?

Possibly, but it's hard to say without trying.  You could put a sanitized piece of foil on the surface of the wort as you're whirlpooling/chilling after you drop below about 160F.  I've done several hop steeps for 25-45 minutes (granted I'm not whirlpooling) and have still reaped the rewards from the process.  Definitely a YMMV thing here.

I have some questions on the cold side as well but I'll save those for another time.

As far as recipe choice goes, a pale ale is an awesome beer to test the process on due to the increase malt presence that's typically desired from the style.

[hannabrew]

I'm interested in trying the LODO method but naturally have some questions as it relates to my setup that I was hoping you all could help with.  I apologize for the long post!

Quick background - I have a single tier 3 vessel system (HLT, cooler MLT, and BK) with a chugger pump (with priming valve).  I just received my new SS IC so there is no copper/brass in the system at all.  I brew mostly pale ales and IPAs. 

My questions are as follows:

1) At this point I only have Campden tablets but was planning on buying some powdered SMB.  But I keep hearing about the "Trifecta blend".  Is this something I would make myself or do some companies sell them pre-blended?  Which of these three would be best to start out with (Campden, SMB, Trifecta)?

Antioxin SBT is the premade stuff, but is hard to come by in the USA.  Outside the US, you may fair better.  You can make trifecta with SMB or KMB, Ascorbic Acid (lhbs usually has this), and Brewtan B at a ratio of 45/45/10.  The premade SBT actually uses Potassium Metabisulfite, and if I was making from scratch I would also use KMB instead of SMB.

2) After reading the PDF that Denny posted, I purchased some Brewtan B from ibrew though the more I've read up on things, that may have been a bit hasty...it seems that is best used if/when there is copper or other oxidizing metals in the mix.  Does it still play a role when using RO and all SS? 

It serves as an oxidative precursor binder and metal chelator.  Some metals can actually come from your water and/or malts, as well as the oxidative precursors.  From the ratio above you can see it's the least used of the three components of trifecta, but I think it's purpose is well served in the long-run.  Definitely not a waste of a purchase.

3) I plan on making mash and lauter caps using cake pans that fit my vessels.  I assume I would still use the regular lid on my MLT on top of the mash cap to keep the heat in right?

Yeah, all normal lids are still used.  For vetting the process, the mash/spargewater caps can be as simple as foil laid on the surface.  If you decide you like the process then you can invest more time/effort/money into something that you prefer, or you may find foil to be sufficient.

4) My LHBS would likely let me condition my grains but I'm not exactly sure how to go about doing this.  I see spray bottles mentioned but what is the actual process?  I'm not seeing how a spray bottle would get all the grains wet without spreading them out.  Also, how would I determine the amount of SMB to dose the water with since it's such a small amount of water? 

I don't dose the water for conditioning grain with anything - plain filtered water is what I use.  My grains are in a bucket so I spray spray spray, mix mix, repeat for 1-2 minutes; then I let it rest for 10 minutes to equalize the moisture across all grain husks.  The grain should NOT feel wet when you are done - perhaps slightly humid but definitely not wet.  As with many things in life, less is more because you can always try more on successive batches.

5)  What do you guys use to "seal grains completely" after milling?

I don't.  I just mill about 15 minutes before dough-in.  If you'll be waiting a day or more then simply bagging in a plastic bag should suffice like you normally would.

6) I really don't want to ruin a batch by having leftover sulfur compounds post-boil.  With that in mind, would it make sense to start with a really small dose at first like 25ppm?  It might not get all the O2 but it will certainly help.  I would be doing no-sparge FWIW. 

Definitely, yes.  Ales at 20-25ppm SMB is a good max; lagers can generally go higher to ~40ppm.  Also, try to pick a yeast strain that is known to not be so finicky with sulfites (1056/wlp001/us05 are all good choices for ales).  There is a list on lowoxygenbrewing.com that is a decent starting point.  I also do no-sparge, but I BIAB.

7) I use Bru'n Water...how should I account for the addition of ions via the LODO dosing?  I see the list that 100 ppm NaMeta has potential for 24 ppm Na etc but is there somewhere I can put that in the spreadsheet to balance out the numbers or do I just need to make sure the numbers are under on the spreadsheet knowing that the dosage will even them out?

From the dose you pick (e.g. 25ppm), you can safely assume that about 1/4 will be Na and 3/4 will be sulfate.  IOW, 6ppm Na and 19ppm sulfate.  Target about those values less than your desired concentrations (e.g. if you want 20ppm Na then target 13ppm in BruN, and if you want 150ppm SO4 then target 130ppm SO4 in BruN).

8 ) I use beersmith for calculating my brewday and I'm trying to figure out my numbers for this simmering boil.  I see I should target 8-10% vaporization however that requires nearly halving what I had calculated as my boil off rate using a roiling boil.  Will lowering the heat to simmer really reduce the boil off rate that much?  I really don't want to have to use the partial lid method especially considering I'm reducing my boil to 60 minutes as well.

This one can be tricky, and variable.  I would say just make your boil visually less vigorous, and brew like normal.  I suspect you'll have nearly the same boiloff in the end, but the differential between the heat source and wort will be greatly reduced which should not cause as much darkening of the wort throughout the boil.  Keep track of the volumes/boiloff this time and it will help you gauge better next time.  You can work on dialing this one in over several batches.

9) Normally once my boil is done, I whirlpool for about 30 minutes and then let everything settle before knocking out.  This goes against the LODO recommendation to cool as quickly as possible yet I can't imagine not whirlpooling my IPAs.  Is this going to negate all the hard work I've done above?

Possibly, but it's hard to say without trying.  You could put a sanitized piece of foil on the surface of the wort as you're whirlpooling/chilling after you drop below about 160F.  I've done several hop steeps for 25-45 minutes (granted I'm not whirlpooling) and have still reaped the rewards from the process.  Definitely a YMMV thing here.

I have some questions on the cold side as well but I'll save those for another time.

As far as recipe choice goes, a pale ale is an awesome beer to test the process on due to the increase malt presence that's typically desired from the style.

Thank you that's a huge help.

One follow up, why KBM instead of SBM?

[stpug]

Thank you that's a huge help.

One follow up, why KBM instead of SBM?

I would go with KMB simply because that's what's used in Antioxin SBT.  The difference, if any, is probably negligible between SMB and KMB in terms of performance and usefulness, and KMB will only add more potassium to the mash that is already providing a huge potassium load, whereas the SMB will add sodium to the relatively small load usually provided by water.  I know the original paper said no KMB, only SMB, but I only use that paper as a rough guideline (not a bible)

[Big Monk]

Thank you that's a huge help.

One follow up, why KBM instead of SBM?

I would go with KMB simply because that's what's used in Antioxin SBT.  The difference, if any, is probably negligible between SMB and KMB in terms of performance and usefulness, and KMB will only add more potassium to the mash that is already providing a huge potassium load, whereas the SMB will add sodium to the relatively small load usually provided by water.  I know the original paper said no KMB, only SMB, but I only use that paper as a rough guideline (not a bible)

0.25 g/gal of a trifecta blend gives ~30 ppm of KMeta when KMeta makes up 45% of the blend. At 30 ppm KMeta you get roughly 10 ppm K, which is the number quoted by Narziss that you want to stay under.

[hannabrew]

Thank you that's a huge help.

One follow up, why KBM instead of SBM?

KMB will only add more potassium to the mash that is already providing a huge potassium load, whereas the SMB will add sodium to the relatively small load usually provided by water. 

Can you explain this a bit more?  Why would the mash already have a huge potassium load?  If I'm using RO water wouldn't it have next to no K in there?

[Big Monk]

Thank you that's a huge help.

One follow up, why KBM instead of SBM?

KMB will only add more potassium to the mash that is already providing a huge potassium load, whereas the SMB will add sodium to the relatively small load usually provided by water. 

Can you explain this a bit more?  Why would the mash already have a huge potassium load?  If I'm using RO water wouldn't it have next to no K in there?

The mash provides a certain amount of K.

[hannabrew]

Thanks for the assistance. 

I bought some SMB and Ascorbic Acid today but am still waiting for the BTB.  Until I get the B2B, would just using a 50/50 mix of those two be the best bet or should I just use SMB?