Author Topic: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing  (Read 123860 times)

Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1395 on: September 15, 2017, 06:41:17 PM »
There shouldn't be any left in the finished beer, unless the yeast produced it.  During oxygenation all the remaining sulfite should get used up before fermentation.

I don't know about temp dependence, I hope not.

So there isn't a measurable correlation between left over sulfites from SMB and Sulfur character in the finished beer?


Offline natebrews

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1396 on: September 15, 2017, 06:47:33 PM »
I'm just saying that the sulfite should be gone at the end of oxygenation, you might have other sulfur compounds in there (sulfate for example) that are detectable though.  If you don't use up the sulfite with oxygenation, then I think you are more likely to have the yeast interact with it and produce unpleasant sulfur compounds. 

I believe this is how I have ended up with a couple fart beers.
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Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1397 on: September 15, 2017, 07:31:22 PM »
I see, I haven't experienced any issues with Sulfur...that I know of, I have only done a couple LODO trials. I will be getting my strips this weekend, so was curious to test say a finished batch of beer. Thanks for the reply.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1398 on: September 16, 2017, 04:54:16 PM »
I'm just saying that the sulfite should be gone at the end of oxygenation, you might have other sulfur compounds in there (sulfate for example) that are detectable though.  If you don't use up the sulfite with oxygenation, then I think you are more likely to have the yeast interact with it and produce unpleasant sulfur compounds. 

I believe this is how I have ended up with a couple fart beers.

I have been slowly dialing back my SBT amounts because of this as well. Not fart beers, but noticeable sulfur in the finished product. I am assuming it is from not properly expending all the remaining sulfites after the boil from a large enough dose of oxygen at pitching time. Currently I am working with 20 ppm, but will dial back to 15 ppm on my next round of brews to see if I can eliminate any sulfur issues.

Offline Andor

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1399 on: September 18, 2017, 01:18:01 AM »
Does using campden tablets to remover chlorine/chloramine factor in the SMB dosage rates?

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1400 on: September 18, 2017, 02:05:26 PM »
Does using campden tablets to remover chlorine/chloramine factor in the SMB dosage rates?

I would say no, but it probably depends on how early you are adding the tablets to do their thing. If they are added the night before, any oxygen scavenging from the SMB would already be used up by the time you heat your strike water.

Offline BrewBama

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Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1401 on: June 09, 2021, 04:01:19 AM »
I want to revisit the sulfur issue. Am I correct in understanding that, until you dial in the amount of SMB needed for your system, you stand a decent chance of unpleasant levels of sulfur in the finished beers? I know that sulfur generally dissipates over time, but I'd rather not wait past the beers freshness peak to wait out sulfur. Do you feel this is due more to the dose or the lack of copper contact (ie., copper IC) or a combination of both? In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see.

Well there are two ways to attack this.  One is to start low and work higher little by little, until you get a hint of what is unpleasant to you.  Or start high and work low. I would go the first one and start at 50-60mgl and slowly work up until you find your diminishing return number.  I would strongly reocmmend the sulfite test strips, and would try and not have more than 20ppm sulfites post boil.
The sulfur issues are most certainly an issue of to high a dose of SMB and not a lack of copper. Remember SMB is a bandaid, and the least amount you can use to achieve the results you want the better.

Old thread revival since Low O2 guys seem to be hanging around again.

…Lets keep this positive and open.



This is where my previous attempts at low O2 went off the rails. Many of the concepts are mechanical therefore easier for me to apply but the dosing rate of meta has resulted in fart beer. Nicht gut. I quit using it.

Even though I do believe the oxidation reaction battle using BtB along with underletting, recirculation under the wort, no splashing, quiet transfer to BK, closed transfer to keg that I already do is a better battle to fight (given our atmosphere), just under 30 ppm of Kmeta shouldn’t get me a sulfur bomb. I imagine I was overdosing before so I am going to attempt it again using the bottom up approach described above.

1/4 tsp is ~ 1 gram which is just under the 1,020 mg total required for 30 ppm in my usual 9 gal brewhaus liquor volume.  This can fit nicely into my self imposed “refuse to be so tedious as to use a gram scale” rule.  PITA avoidance is priority 1.

I think I can live with 1/4 tsp as a gram of prevention. We’ll see.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 12:35:41 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1402 on: June 09, 2021, 12:35:38 PM »
A lot of familiar names on this page alone!  ;)

The dosage is not the problem here. I know a certain person who purges his kettles, and grist using multiple cycles of vacuum/blow off with nitrogen from his own nitrogen generator, to sub 10ppb levels, and STILL uses 50ppm of antioxidants. He does not have issues with sulfur.

The issue is the lack of sulfite expenditure. You could use a dose of 10000 ppm, and not get sulfur IF you expend the sulfites properly. What does that mean? Well.. Process ingress (ingress of oxygen through the brewing process) and oxygenation for yeast, have to not only expend all sulfites (which are now just water constituents) they have to = the level optimal for yeast. That means you need to oxygenate say roughly DOUBLE you normally would (for a general example).
I don't see a mention of water de-oxygenation, so if you are not planning on that, don't bother with the sulfites, as they will be expended the instant they are added to the oxygen saturated strike water.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1403 on: June 09, 2021, 01:26:10 PM »
That’s OK. If it drives it off it won’t ruin my beer. …but that didn’t seem to be the case in the past. The O2 didn’t seem to drive off all the sulfur from the overdose which resulted in a ruined fart beer dumper. (I wish I could find how much I used in that failure)

I understand as water is heated O2 is driven off.  I understand there is 4-5 ppm dissolved O2 at 165*F (point No 3 at https://winning-homebrew.com/low-oxygen-brewing.html).  I’ll just have to be OK with that.

I know others have gone to lengths just short of purging a sealed room with inert gas and using a SCUBA tank to breathe. Purging with a nitrogen generator is definitely off the table for me.

As mentioned in the zombie thread above, the all or nothing that some folks try to turn this into is a turn off for many and there are plenty of sources (Bemforth, Fix, Strong, etc.) that think this is all overkill. It’s just a hobby for me and hopefully a 1/4 tsp KMeta should be good enough without creating a sulfur bomb.

In fact, I am seriously thinking of starting with 1/8 tsp based on my past experience and your previous recommendation to start low a work up (above).



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Offline nateo

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1404 on: June 09, 2021, 01:34:01 PM »
I use 1/4tsp of k meta to treat my water for chloramines. You should be fine using that much.
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1405 on: June 09, 2021, 01:42:32 PM »
That’s OK. If it drives it off it won’t ruin my beer. …but that didn’t seem to be the case in the past. The O2 didn’t seem to drive off all the sulfur from the overdose which resulted in a ruined fart beer dumper. (I wish I could find how much I used in that failure)

I understand as water is heated O2 is driven off.  I understand there is 4-5 ppm dissolved O2 at 165*F (point No 3 at https://winning-homebrew.com/low-oxygen-brewing.html).  I’ll just have to be OK with that.

I know others have gone to lengths just short of purging a sealed room with inert gas and using a SCUBA tank to breathe. Purging with a nitrogen generator is definitely off the table for me.

As mentioned in the zombie thread above, the all or nothing that some folks try to turn this into is a turn off for many and there are plenty of sources (Bemforth, Fix, Strong, etc.) that think this is all overkill. It’s just a hobby for me and hopefully a 1/4 tsp KMeta should be good enough without creating a sulfur bomb.

In fact, I am seriously thinking of starting with 1/8 tsp based on my past experience and your previous recommendation to start low a work up (above).



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Sulfite is a 5:1 reduction. 5ppm sulfite will reduce 1ppm o2. So you will expel 25ppm instantly and leave you with 5ppm (1ppm o2) for the entirety of the rest of the hot side(note you will expend that on dough in for sure though). Will you see an improvement? Probably small.

Beer is the sum of all parts, so a concise stepped approach is required to notice marginal improvements.

The YOS method is dead simple, and works great. I would seriously look into it. VERY large gains can be seen then (80/20 rule).
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/deoxygenation-revisited/

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« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 02:00:27 PM by hmbrw4life »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1406 on: June 09, 2021, 03:33:35 PM »
Back when I was "fairly" all in with LODO, I went to the yeast scavenging approach/alternative to boiling, because I didn't have to cool the strike water from the boiling temperature with an immersion chiller (and worry about the splashing on removal of the IC to catch the right temperature as the water came down to strike temp).  I just used Red Star yeast and some DME to yeast-scavenge the strike water.  It seemed to work well enough, but it took extra time, so I tended to cover the water pot and let it work over night at a set temperature of around 90F.  Then in the morning, I would proceed to heat the strike water to correct temperature, underlet it, stir gently and proceed with a capped mash with tight recirculation using a submerged Quiklock halo.

Not really too much work, but I don't do it as often anymore....
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Offline BrewBama

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Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1407 on: June 09, 2021, 05:06:22 PM »
I’ve read that YOS works but BR said he doesn’t prefer it because it leaves a ‘flat’ taste. Maybe it’s in this huge thread somewhere. I am definitely NOT looking for a dull taste. That would be antithetical to the goal.

Did you get a dull or flat taste using YOS vs boil/cool?

I tried boil/cool and quite frankly it was a PITA.  Maybe boil late at night before bed, put the lid on and going to bed, get up early to brew (which is when I normally brew).

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« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 05:24:03 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1408 on: June 09, 2021, 05:52:17 PM »
I did not experience any adverse effects of the yeast scavenged water.  Perhaps my approach was not as tight as it could have been?  I used a 15 gallon pot and filled it to the brim with strike water to be treated, but I didn't have a lid that was gasketed or otherwise "sealed", so maybe it lost all of the "benefit"... Like I said above, I am not concerning myself much with the O2 in my strike water - but, yes, I know that means the rest of the process is already "tainted" or at least less effective, due to the mash O2 levels.  Even so, I tend to follow many other LODO process enhancements, especially cold side handling, O2 free transfers/purging with fermentation CO2, and spunding (when I can) to keg.

Cheers!
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Introduction to Low Oxygen Brewing
« Reply #1409 on: June 09, 2021, 06:24:35 PM »
I’ve read that YOS works but BR said he doesn’t prefer it because it leaves a ‘flat’ taste. Maybe it’s in this huge thread somewhere. I am definitely NOT looking for a dull taste. That would be antithetical to the goal.

Did you get a dull or flat taste using YOS vs boil/cool?

I tried boil/cool and quite frankly it was a PITA.  Maybe boil late at night before bed, put the lid on and going to bed, get up early to brew (which is when I normally brew).

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Since when do you listen to anything BR says!?!?!? ;D

For real though, taste is highly subjective. Many folks swear by it.
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