[tommymorris]

How long must one boil in a preboil?

[The Beerery]

OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?

Again I don't have hard figures on this as I spund, however I don't think it has to be that complicated. Fill with sanitizer push out with co2. Put 1-2psi on the regulator and switch to liquid out. Pop the top of the keg and you should have a positive pressure coming out the opening, simply dump in the sugar, and replace the lid. Crank up pressure and purge a few times with the connector on the liquid out. Then I would rack the beer in a closed loop. You should have enough yeast reduction to cover you.

[Big Monk]

How long must one boil in a preboil?

5 minutes.

[The Beerery]

How long must one boil in a preboil?

Oxygen solubility is zero at 100c. So as long as you can ensure your entire volume of water is at that you are good. For reference I do 5 minutes with 5500 watts wide open.

[narvin]

OR ferment to gravity and sugar prime the keg.

What method are people using to add priming solution to a purged keg without introducing too much air?

The best I can think of is adding a sampling port to your transfer tubing and using a syringe to dose the beer in-line.  Maybe someone else has come up with an easier solution?

You can inject the priming solution through the liquid out fitting.  If I were to add speise or Krauesen to a beer, I would put it into a 2.5 gallon keg (have 2) purge 12 times with 30 PSI CO2, then jumper out to out, and inject into the purged keg.

That is how I would give it a try.

You can also use a club soda plastic bottle and carbonator cap... this works very well for adding gelatin.

[narvin]

I don't want to derail but if the issue that turns people off is the all-or-nothing aspect, I suggest you test any or all of the steps separately.  My humble two cents:

I haven't yet gotten Brewtan to test but I do see an improvement in lagering time from a) preboiling and using 60ppm smb in the mash water, and b) using pvpp in the whirlpool.  My aim was to prevent the formation of polyphenols, or precipitate them, which aging usually does for me but gelatin does not.  I still have a copper pick up tube and didn't keg until fermentation was 90% done, but I do push out of my stainless fermenter using CO2 into kegs purged by pushing out sanitizer.

I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.

So, there are multiple poasible benefits.  For what I need, part of the process may be enough.  That being said, a traditional long lagering period has done well in the past, though it may not give you the modern "big brewer" taste if that is what you want.  I'm also excited to try Brewtan because I'd really like to avoid lengthening the brewday unless it's unavoidable.

[The Beerery]

I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.

The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

[HoosierBrew]

I want to revisit the sulfur issue. Am I correct in understanding that, until you dial in the amount of SMB needed for your system, you stand a decent chance of unpleasant levels of sulfur in the finished beers? I know that sulfur generally dissipates over time, but I'd rather not wait past the beers freshness peak to wait out sulfur. Do you feel this is due more to the dose or the lack of copper contact (ie., copper IC) or a combination of both? In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see. 

[narvin]

I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.

The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.

[Phil_M]

In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see.

I just asked pretty much the same question in the Brewtan B thread. I'm hoping that Brewtan B can offset any "issues" from using copper chillers.

[The Beerery]

I want to revisit the sulfur issue. Am I correct in understanding that, until you dial in the amount of SMB needed for your system, you stand a decent chance of unpleasant levels of sulfur in the finished beers? I know that sulfur generally dissipates over time, but I'd rather not wait past the beers freshness peak to wait out sulfur. Do you feel this is due more to the dose or the lack of copper contact (ie., copper IC) or a combination of both? In the mean time (or maybe permanently), I'll be using a copper IC, with Brewtan B and SMB, in the hopes that the Brewtan will offset the copper induced oxidation (which seems legit to me). We'll see.

Well there are two ways to attack this.  One is to start low and work higher little by little, until you get a hint of what is unpleasant to you.  Or start high and work low. I would go the first one and start at 50-60mgl and slowly work up until you find your diminishing return number.  I would strongly reocmmend the sulfite test strips, and would try and not have more than 20ppm sulfites post boil.
The sulfur issues are most certainly an issue of to high a dose of SMB and not a lack of copper. Remember SMB is a bandaid, and the least amount you can use to achieve the results you want the better.

[HoosierBrew]

and the least amount you can use to achieve the results you want the better.

Yeah, that was my thought. Thanks for the guidance.

[scrap iron]

I tried the SMB in  Strong Bitter recipe I use all the time. Pre boiled mash and sparge water and quick cooled to their respective temps. I had to use my copper IC as that's all I have but I did clean it well and soaked it in vinegar along with copper whirlpool fittings. I then rinsed the vinegar off with water and wiped dry. I added the SMB and my brewing salts after fast cooling. Pumped cooled water to underlet  grains in MT and covered top of mash with foil. SMB dose was .1mg/liter water in mash and about 25 ppm in sparge. I use a direct fire mash and circulate with a copper fitting [pacified with vinegar] under the mash surface. Also made a copper sparge arm that outlets under the mash surface. My questions are,[1] is using the copper that's pacified going to be ok
[2] should I not circulate the DF mash as much, I run it to maintain and raise temps.[3] is the sparge method described ok, no sparge might be a problem [4] is it ok to add SMB along with regular brewing salts {5] I dry hopped in a purged carboy after fermented ,thoughts on my methods?  I bottled this beer just 4 days ago and it smelled great. Very strong floral and some spice from Golding and Willamette hops. The hydro sample tasted great. Sorry for the long post and thanks for posting feedback for us,   cheers Mike.

[The Beerery]

I tried the SMB in  Strong Bitter recipe I use all the time. Pre boiled mash and sparge water and quick cooled to their respective temps. I had to use my copper IC as that's all I have but I did clean it well and soaked it in vinegar along with copper whirlpool fittings. I then rinsed the vinegar off with water and wiped dry. I added the SMB and my brewing salts after fast cooling. Pumped cooled water to underlet  grains in MT and covered top of mash with foil. SMB dose was .1mg/liter water in mash and about 25 ppm in sparge. I use a direct fire mash and circulate with a copper fitting [pacified with vinegar] under the mash surface. Also made a copper sparge arm that outlets under the mash surface. My questions are,[1] is using the copper that's pacified going to be ok
[2] should I not circulate the DF mash as much, I run it to maintain and raise temps.[3] is the sparge method described ok, no sparge might be a problem [4] is it ok to add SMB along with regular brewing salts {5] I dry hopped in a purged carboy after fermented ,thoughts on my methods?  I bottled this beer just 4 days ago and it smelled great. Very strong floral and some spice from Golding and Willamette hops. The hydro sample tasted great. Sorry for the long post and thanks for posting feedback for us,   cheers Mike.

I will try and break this down.

1. I honestly don't know. I have never used copper. Kunze is very strict in his avoidance of copper. Brewtan will likely be your friend if you have any copper and/or use tap water.
2. I recirculate my mash the entire time, and I feel this helps in keeping all fats and lipids in the tun.
3. Sparging should be fine, Just always use caution when handling it, minimize splashing and stirring.
4. Absolutely, not a problem.
5. I am not going to lie, its going to hurt you. When dry hopping in a keg or fermenter its not a bad idea to either have yeast still active, or add some sugar to activate the yeast and scavenge the o2 you created.

[zwiller]

I also noticed less darkening of the wort during boil.  My kettle pH was 5.2, lower than normal 5.3-5.35, so I don't know how much is attributable to that.  If I did more rigorous test I'd look at the color of first runnings.

The lower pH is 100% the cause of the SMB. At that dose rate you used you are at about .1 reduction.  However, I don't think you will see a color reduction from pH alone, well not in that range anyway. How was the flavor of the wort?

The wort was smooth.  There was an excellent break, which I've had before when lowering pH, but not always.    This fest bier was on the low end of IBUs so I didn't expect a harshness but it definitely seemed like any possible polyphenol harshness was minimized.  So far, so good.

What's your doing rate of the Polyclar?  Recommended is 15g/hL or about 3grams/5G.