Author Topic: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet  (Read 4941 times)

Online The Beerery

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2017, 09:34:55 PM »
Thank you both.  This is all good information for me.  I am generally floating around the 3.0 WtG ratio, usually just below, so I should be good most times.

Out of curiosity, how might a no-sparge, single-vessel brewer use this spreadsheet for low gravity beers like US light lagers or even ordinary bitters, for example?  I'm thinking about beers where the usual OG might be up to 1.040 (usually less).  It appears that the calculations stop being calculated (Preboil gravity, OG, hop utilization, BU, etc) once the circular reference error is hit and they don't resume until you've overcome the circular reference error.

Good questions, I don't have the answer and I will have to play with it because I only brew beers from 1.046-1.056 basically.
But basically you would have to up the malt and lower the water and play around with it. Above 3 we saw a sharp decrease in efficiency so we didn't go much past.
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Offline natebrews

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2017, 10:49:36 PM »
I used the older brew sheet for my Scottish 60/- that I did this weekend.  8gal of strike and 7.75lb of grain, so almost 4qt/lb with an OG of 1.034.  I faked it a bit by using 3.0 to calculate what I should get and the measured results were spot on with what the sheet said.  I'm no chemist for sure (circuit guy, not chemical guy), but could you consider the salts/acid you have to add remain about the same except it will be diluted with more water (which I'm considering to be a neutral medium in this case)? 

Likewise, if the water wasn't neutral, couldn't you scale the contents of the source water as if you just removed some portion of pure water from the original source water.  For example, if you had 10ppm at 4qt/lb and you are faking with 3qt/lb, then you would have 13.3ppm @ 3qt/lb?

This is of some particular interest to me since 85% of what I brew is between 1.035 and 1.045
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 11:16:12 PM by natebrews »
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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2017, 12:02:57 AM »
Definitely do whatever works for you but the sheet will throw errors beyond 3.34 qts/lb.

We use Kai's first wort numbers from Braukaiser and his numbers stop at 3.35. Things start to get a bit wonky up at those values. The problem with low gravity beers and no-sparge is that you have to really jack the WTG way up there to get the gravity low enough. Bryan and I don't brew anything less than 12 °P so for us it's always been no issue.

So it may be that you just need to play around with the numbers. I think the lowest you would be able to go with our sheet, theoretically was 1.041.


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Offline natebrews

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2017, 12:08:41 AM »
Thanks.  I have used it for my last 3 brews which were 1.040, 1.042, and 1.034 and have had good results.  Like I said, I 'faked' the water to grist a bit to make the spreadsheet work and adjusted other things in a way that seemed reasonable to me to compensate for that faking. 

I haven't tried the new one yet, but I'm probably going to grab it tonight and give it a whirl.  Thanks a ton for all your work, it has definitely been very useful.
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Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2017, 04:13:57 AM »
Is there a way to adjust the acid content of Sauer malz?
Another thing my ph seems to come in higher than other calculators with the same info (my water has 120 hco3 if it matters).

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2017, 09:51:05 AM »
Is there a way to adjust the acid content of Sauer malz?
Another thing my ph seems to come in higher than other calculators with the same info (my water has 120 hco3 if it matters).

Yup. Use the Mash SG Acid % cell.

Are you using the DI pH cells?

Offline stpug

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2017, 03:21:38 PM »
We use Kai's first wort numbers from Braukaiser and his numbers stop at 3.35. Things start to get a bit wonky up at those values.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason why you chose to use the chart from braukaiser instead of the actual equation (i.e. the equation used to generate the chart)?  It would seem that using the equation would be more robust/scalable AND it would eliminate a lot of the forecast/match processes used in the spreadsheet.  With the equation you can simply feed it the WtG ratio and pop out the result.

I know that this is sheet if free to be modified as I wish for my purposes and that it's created with focus on your and Bryan's brewing processes, but I'm just curious if perhaps the equation was overlooked in lieu of the chart, or if there's a specific reason the chart was the better option.

Big Monk

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2017, 04:58:55 PM »
We use Kai's first wort numbers from Braukaiser and his numbers stop at 3.35. Things start to get a bit wonky up at those values.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason why you chose to use the chart from braukaiser instead of the actual equation (i.e. the equation used to generate the chart)?  It would seem that using the equation would be more robust/scalable AND it would eliminate a lot of the forecast/match processes used in the spreadsheet.  With the equation you can simply feed it the WtG ratio and pop out the result.

I know that this is sheet if free to be modified as I wish for my purposes and that it's created with focus on your and Bryan's brewing processes, but I'm just curious if perhaps the equation was overlooked in lieu of the chart, or if there's a specific reason the chart was the better option.

This is a good question. The short answer is yes, there is a reason. Just some quick backstory:
When Bryan was first testing the spreadsheet, we were going back and forth daily and incorporating comments weekly after he brewed. At some point Bryan realized that the estimated gravities we were getting were in opposition to Kai’s 1st wort gravity chart. He was also getting gravities a few points off. I incorporated the chart at that point.

The reason it is in chart form and not equation form is because Kai makes a few assumptions that we needed to account for:

   He specifies 100% η Mash
   He assumes 80% Fine Grind Extract

What started happening after I implemented this was that the values for gravity matched Kai’s chart exactly when we had 100% η Mash entered on our sheet but those values changed as we began entering ACTUAL recipes and modifying the value for ηMash. What we needed was a value, one that I eventually called “Lab Extract %”, that kept the gravities matching Kai’s chart as we decreased the η Mash value.

So, we calculate gravity points as follows:

Max Extract Points  (Indivudual Grains) = Max Extract (PPG) * η (Lab Extract) * Grain Weight (lbs)

Max Extract Points (Total)= ∑ Max Extract Points (Indivudual Grains)

So short answer is yes, there is a reason.

The long answer is also yes, there is a reason, but no, it currently isn’t scalable as written. I'm sure I could come up with something when I get some free time.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 05:01:54 PM by Big Monk »

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2017, 03:48:27 AM »
Is there a way to adjust the acid content of Sauer malz?
Another thing my ph seems to come in higher than other calculators with the same info (my water has 120 hco3 if it matters).

Yup. Use the Mash SG Acid % cell.

Are you using the DI pH cells?
Yes, using the di cells. I get a .1 difference between version 5.2 and 6.0 with the same info. 

Big Monk

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2017, 09:53:23 AM »
Is there a way to adjust the acid content of Sauer malz?
Another thing my ph seems to come in higher than other calculators with the same info (my water has 120 hco3 if it matters).

Yup. Use the Mash SG Acid % cell.

Are you using the DI pH cells?
Yes, using the di cells. I get a .1 difference between version 5.2 and 6.0 with the same info.

Ok. I'll look into it.

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2017, 12:30:05 AM »
How would I convert my acid malt ph into a usable # for the sg cell?
Side note I have some best acidulated clocking in at 3.3.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:31:41 AM by natebriscoe »

Big Monk

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Re: Low Oxygen Brewing Sheet
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2017, 01:00:10 AM »
How would I convert my acid malt ph into a usable # for the sg cell?
Side note I have some best acidulated clocking in at 3.3.

There is a guy at HBT to modified my sheet with an equivalence for acid malt.

Currently it uses 60 ml/kg of malt for a 0.1 pH drop. I'll try and get you the link to what that guy did.