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Author Topic: Na levels in brewing...  (Read 8351 times)

Offline zwiller

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2016, 02:16:38 pm »
I would agree, but for some northern german pilsner examples, I would say NA is at or above 100ppm for those minerally/salty characteristics. Adding 50ppm to a helles, does not make it off putting in any way shape or form.

Once again mind blown. 

Remember ya salty scallawags to use a non-iodized form of NaCl if you plan to use salt in beer.  I fooled with it a few times in lighter ales and I didn't really think it made a difference but agree that it really helps in darker beers but I don't OCD about the ppm, just enough to hit mash pH via baking soda. 

Sam
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2016, 03:28:24 pm »
I would agree, but for some northern german pilsner examples, I would say NA is at or above 100ppm for those minerally/salty characteristics. Adding 50ppm to a helles, does not make it off putting in any way shape or form.

Once again mind blown. 

Remember ya salty scallawags to use a non-iodized form of NaCl if you plan to use salt in beer.  I fooled with it a few times in lighter ales and I didn't really think it made a difference but agree that it really helps in darker beers but I don't OCD about the ppm, just enough to hit mash pH via baking soda.

Agreed z-man!  and this to boot ^^^^^^

50ppm in a helles, hmmmmm? I may try that soon.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2020, 10:06:58 pm »
Guys:  I'm replying to an old topic here but I wondered if anyone had looked closer or done any testing on Na levels in brewing water.  I just watched a cooking series on Netflix (part of which concentrated on salt and what it does for our food) so I'm on this kick again.  For those who know their water profile and don't add any additional Na... do you know what your Na is in your source water?  Do any of you shoot for a specific amount?  Do you adjust the Na based on the style?  I have 13ppm of Na in my water and I add *no* additional Na... no epsom salt, etc.  Cheers guys.   
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline BrewBama

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Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2020, 06:00:50 am »
I build water from distilled. I used to fiddle around with water based on style and color, etc. but I landed here and rarely do much if anything more. Here’s what I shoot for:



Here’s how I get there in 5.5 gal strike 3 gal sparge:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 06:03:26 am by BrewBama »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2020, 07:17:47 am »
Thanks BrewBama.  That puts you around half of my Na but I'm going to guess that it doesn't make a lot of difference at very low levels.  I might play with this a little bit... a glass of beer and a pinch of salt to try to determine if there is anything to be gained by slightly increasing it.  Cheers. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline goose

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2020, 07:20:40 am »
Thanks guys.  I'm not heavy into the sciences so bear with me on this question... calcium chloride and calcium sulfate are referred to as "salts", right?  Does the addition of CaCl and/or CaSO4 contribute to Na?  My guess is NO because when I add those to something like BNW or EZ_Water, the Na level does not increase.  So where do you guys see your Na levels (ppm) for some of the beers you make?

I want to add to this although it digresses a bit from the discussion.

The chemical definition of a "salt" is the product of a reaction between an acid and a base.  The reaction produces a "salt" and water..  Although common table salt (sodium chloride) meets the definition; gypsum (calcium sulfate), calcium chloride, and other minerals like Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate) also meet this definition.  Don't let the term "salt" confuse you.
You are correct in your assumption that gypsum and calcium chloride will add no sodium (Na) cations to the wort/beer since there are no sodium cations present in either one of these minerals.

Also note that there is a difference between common table salt and kosher salt.  Table salt contains a small amount of iodine "iodized salt" to make it pour easier in high humidity conditions, i.e. the salt crystals don't stick together making a block of salt.  Kosher salt is pure salt and is the one that should be the sodium chloride used for brewing.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2020, 08:40:04 am »
Thanks Goose...  That's good stuff.  I can't remember where I heard it but I do remember kosher salt being the better option for brewing.  Also, if you ever put one of those small, white blobs of CaCl on your tongue... you wonder what on Earth is going on.  It has such a weird flavor that you wonder how anyone can put that in their beer.  Anyway, I will noodle with the kosher salt and try to see what the impact is like and I'll report back.  For anyone out there who routinely brews with Na levels in the 20, 40, 60ppm range... please post and let us know your experience.  Cheers. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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narvin

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2020, 08:55:20 am »
Thanks Goose...  That's good stuff.  I can't remember where I heard it but I do remember kosher salt being the better option for brewing.  Also, if you ever put one of those small, white blobs of CaCl on your tongue... you wonder what on Earth is going on.  It has such a weird flavor that you wonder how anyone can put that in their beer.  Anyway, I will noodle with the kosher salt and try to see what the impact is like and I'll report back.  For anyone out there who routinely brews with Na levels in the 20, 40, 60ppm range... please post and let us know your experience.  Cheers.

My old water (Baltimore city) had NA levels of about 20.  New water is a well and the Na averages around 40.  I can't say I've noticed a difference yet, good or bad. 

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2020, 09:39:04 am »
Thanks Goose...  That's good stuff.  I can't remember where I heard it but I do remember kosher salt being the better option for brewing.  Also, if you ever put one of those small, white blobs of CaCl on your tongue... you wonder what on Earth is going on.  It has such a weird flavor that you wonder how anyone can put that in their beer.  Anyway, I will noodle with the kosher salt and try to see what the impact is like and I'll report back.  For anyone out there who routinely brews with Na levels in the 20, 40, 60ppm range... please post and let us know your experience.  Cheers.

My old water (Baltimore city) had NA levels of about 20.  New water is a well and the Na averages around 40.  I can't say I've noticed a difference yet, good or bad.
Interesting.  So doubling it at low levels has shown NO real difference?  I can't really see a point in going from 13 to 40 with no detectable difference and it makes me wonder how high one would want to take it.  For some reason I am picturing the difference it would make in a pale lager (helles, pilsner, American, Mexican or Caribbean lager, etc).  These beers typically come out nicely for me and I do wonder if their lean flavor profile would be the best place to start because the increased Na would be more evident.  Cheers.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline goose

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2020, 10:03:18 am »
Thanks Goose...  That's good stuff.  I can't remember where I heard it but I do remember kosher salt being the better option for brewing.  Also, if you ever put one of those small, white blobs of CaCl on your tongue... you wonder what on Earth is going on.  It has such a weird flavor that you wonder how anyone can put that in their beer.  Anyway, I will noodle with the kosher salt and try to see what the impact is like and I'll report back.  For anyone out there who routinely brews with Na levels in the 20, 40, 60ppm range... please post and let us know your experience.  Cheers.

My old water (Baltimore city) had NA levels of about 20.  New water is a well and the Na averages around 40.  I can't say I've noticed a difference yet, good or bad.
Interesting.  So doubling it at low levels has shown NO real difference?  I can't really see a point in going from 13 to 40 with no detectable difference and it makes me wonder how high one would want to take it.  For some reason I am picturing the difference it would make in a pale lager (helles, pilsner, American, Mexican or Caribbean lager, etc).  These beers typically come out nicely for me and I do wonder if their lean flavor profile would be the best place to start because the increased Na would be more evident.  Cheers.

You need to download Martin Brungard's Bru'n Water software and read the part abut water chemistry.  When you create a water profile, it will tell you the upper limit for sodium in a beer.  I have some that mostly go around 13-20 and some a bit higher in Na (mostly my darker beers like stouts and porters).
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narvin

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2020, 11:13:51 am »
Thanks Goose...  That's good stuff.  I can't remember where I heard it but I do remember kosher salt being the better option for brewing.  Also, if you ever put one of those small, white blobs of CaCl on your tongue... you wonder what on Earth is going on.  It has such a weird flavor that you wonder how anyone can put that in their beer.  Anyway, I will noodle with the kosher salt and try to see what the impact is like and I'll report back.  For anyone out there who routinely brews with Na levels in the 20, 40, 60ppm range... please post and let us know your experience.  Cheers.

My old water (Baltimore city) had NA levels of about 20.  New water is a well and the Na averages around 40.  I can't say I've noticed a difference yet, good or bad.
Interesting.  So doubling it at low levels has shown NO real difference?  I can't really see a point in going from 13 to 40 with no detectable difference and it makes me wonder how high one would want to take it.  For some reason I am picturing the difference it would make in a pale lager (helles, pilsner, American, Mexican or Caribbean lager, etc).  These beers typically come out nicely for me and I do wonder if their lean flavor profile would be the best place to start because the increased Na would be more evident.  Cheers.

I can't do a side by side test, so I'm left saying to myself "This beer is really good!".  But I used to say that with the old water  :)

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2020, 11:43:04 am »
The old timers seem to have added a lot more NaCl to their beer than we do today, and they also seemed to tout it as being more flavor beneficial than we do today.  The 1963 era document I've linked to below talks about 250 ppm NaCl being acceptable in light beers and 500 ppm NaCl being acceptable in dark beers.  Sodium is 39.337% of NaCl, so multiply these figures by 0.39337.

0.39337 x 250 = 98.3 ppm sodium acceptable for light colored beers
0.39337 x 500 = 196.7 ppm sodium acceptable for dark colored beers

The "best range" for light beer is proclaimed to be 75ppm to 150 ppm, which would be 29.5 ppm Na+ to 59 ppm Na+.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1963.tb01933.x



« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 11:51:39 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2020, 01:21:00 pm »
One thing that may have transpired is that from the 60's (and before) to today we have become aware that sodium is potentially bad for us.  But this arguement as a reason for curtailing its addition makes little sense.  The RDA for sodium chloride is 2,300 mg, or 2.3 grams per day, and even on a sodium restricted diet one is never advised to go below 1,500 mg per day.  You can die if you take in less than 1,200 mg per day.

If one adds 2.3 grams of salt to 30 liters of beer, then the entire 30 liters would need to be consumed within a single day just to meet the normal daily recommended intake of salt.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 05:05:03 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2020, 04:32:37 pm »
One thing that may have transpired is that from the 60's (and before) to today we have become aware that sodium is potentially bad for us.  But this arguement as a reason for curtailing its addition makes little sense.  The RDA for sodium chloride is 2,300 mg, or 2.3 grams per day, and even on a sodium restricted diet one is never advised to go below 1,500 mg per day.  You can die if you take in less than 1,200 mg per day.

If one adds 2.3 grams of salt to 30 liters of beer, then the entire 30 liters would need to be consumed within a single day just to meed the normal daily recommended intake of salt.

Cool - I am telling my cardiologist about this!
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Offline Slowbrew

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Re: Na levels in brewing...
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2020, 02:56:41 pm »
One thing that may have transpired is that from the 60's (and before) to today we have become aware that sodium is potentially bad for us.  But this arguement as a reason for curtailing its addition makes little sense.  The RDA for sodium chloride is 2,300 mg, or 2.3 grams per day, and even on a sodium restricted diet one is never advised to go below 1,500 mg per day.  You can die if you take in less than 1,200 mg per day.

If one adds 2.3 grams of salt to 30 liters of beer, then the entire 30 liters would need to be consumed within a single day just to meet the normal daily recommended intake of salt.

Challenge accepted!   ;D

Paul
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