Author Topic: Historic British IPA and Brett C  (Read 1617 times)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Historic British IPA and Brett C
« on: November 02, 2016, 05:10:53 PM »
About to brew another historic IPA. This is MO, EKG, WLP-013, water with a lot of Sulfate. The new thing is that I will use Brett C on 5 gallons to see what it does.

What is the recommended way to use the Brett C? My thinking is to add when kegged as that is when the Brett probably took hold in the old days, from the wood.

Any advice is appreciated.

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Offline rob_f

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 09:05:08 PM »
Affect will be subtle when adding it after fermentation is complete. Even more so if that keg is cold.  My experience has been a pleasant fruitiness with very little funk.  I usually add it to the primary after about 3 days of fermentation.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 09:19:07 PM »
Affect will be subtle when adding it after fermentation is complete. Even more so if that keg is cold.  My experience has been a pleasant fruitiness with very little funk.  I usually add it to the primary after about 3 days of fermentation.

Brett C is a very slow fermenter when used in secondary. It does produce a nice tropical fruit (think pineapple slightly) when stressed as in a secondary fermentation over a long period of time. It can be fairly clean when used strictly as a primary yeast.
Here is the conundrum with what you are planning. When brewing an IPA (even an English one) you want those hops best when fresh in the finished product (with ENglish IPA being able to be aged a bit more than AIPA). It will take Brett C at least 3-4 mos to make a noticeable impact in secondary all the while your are losing that fresh hop signature. You could try what rob posted and add the brett C after several days of fermentation in hopes of speeding up the production of its characteristics.

Or, another trick that can work, is to add cold crash to drop out your sacch yeast, keg the beer and add some sugar solution (or maybe even some invert) along with the brett to the keg to increase the flavor/aroma characteristics of the brett more quickly.

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 09:25:38 PM »
Your plan sounds fine.  English IPA probably had a faded hop character compared to today's AIPA. Does Mitch Steele's book have a recipe for something like this?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 11:12:15 PM »
Thanks guys. I have brewed this type of beer before, using the Mitch Steele book as a guide. These are harsh/astringent when young from high sulfate water and loads of low AA EKG. The Burton brewed versions were aged for around a year in the brewery yard in casks, then went on the boat to India. I'm not worried abou hop aroma, if I want more, I can add dry hops after aging.

Reading this, the thinking of adding late is good, oak is also used, the Casks were unlined. The author is now the Editor of Zymurgy, Dave Carpenter.
https://beerandbrewing.com/VKHKxSsAAD6t72dF/article/a-recipe-for-historic-burton-ipa
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 11:19:51 PM »
Thanks guys. I have brewed this type of beer before, using the Mitch Steele book as a guide. These are harsh/astringent when young from high sulfate water and loads of low AA EKG. The Burton brewed versions were aged for around a year in the brewery yard in casks, then went on the boat to India. I'm not worried abou hop aroma, if I want more, I can add dry hops after aging.

Reading this, the thinking of adding late is good, oak is also used, the Casks were unlined. The author is now the Editor of Zymurgy, Dave Carpenter.
https://beerandbrewing.com/VKHKxSsAAD6t72dF/article/a-recipe-for-historic-burton-ipa

Cool! Was unsure you were attempting a Burton Ale. In that case, I would secondary the brett for as many months as needed until you get your desired charateristics aroma/flavor-wise. Don't be afraid to mash a "tiny" bit higher to leave some residuals for the brett, but I wouldn't go more than a couple degrees as stated earlier that Brett C is not a voracious secondary fermenter unlike other bretts I have worked with.
And as you stated, maybe a quick 3-5 day dry hop right before tapping to give that fresh English aroma!
Let us know how it goes. Sounds exciting...now to just replicate that voyage.... ;)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 11:39:36 PM »
Thanks guys. I have brewed this type of beer before, using the Mitch Steele book as a guide. These are harsh/astringent when young from high sulfate water and loads of low AA EKG. The Burton brewed versions were aged for around a year in the brewery yard in casks, then went on the boat to India. I'm not worried abou hop aroma, if I want more, I can add dry hops after aging.

Reading this, the thinking of adding late is good, oak is also used, the Casks were unlined. The author is now the Editor of Zymurgy, Dave Carpenter.
https://beerandbrewing.com/VKHKxSsAAD6t72dF/article/a-recipe-for-historic-burton-ipa

Cool! Was unsure you were attempting a Burton Ale. In that case, I would secondary the brett for as many months as needed until you get your desired charateristics aroma/flavor-wise. Don't be afraid to mash a "tiny" bit higher to leave some residuals for the brett, but I wouldn't go more than a couple degrees as stated earlier that Brett C is not a voracious secondary fermenter unlike other bretts I have worked with.
And as you stated, maybe a quick 3-5 day dry hop right before tapping to give that fresh English aroma!
Let us know how it goes. Sounds exciting...now to just replicate that voyage.... ;)
I will split a batch, oak both, and use the Brett C on one to see what it brings to the beer.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline bboy9000

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 01:17:29 AM »
What do you consider high sulfate?  300pm?  Also, I thought Mitch said those barrels were lined with brewer's pitch so the oak character wasn't present in the beer.
Brian
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2016, 01:56:58 AM »
What do you consider high sulfate?  300pm?  Also, I thought Mitch said those barrels were lined with brewer's pitch so the oak character wasn't present in the beer.
350-400 is high, for me.

Ron Pattinson claims that the British didn't use pitch, and IIRC, so does Martin Cornell. I will look at the IPA book and see what it says.

From Pattinson, read the comments. There may have been a paraffin wax used.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/04/lining-casks-with-pitch.html
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 02:09:29 AM by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline bboy9000

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 05:30:57 AM »
Thanks for the link.  Pattinson's blog has been a favorite of mine but I haven't read that article.  Still I would bet much oak character made it into the beer.  If they were cleaning with boiling water and sanitizing with sulfur I imagine the oak character dissipated.  Regardless it looks like a good recipe.   I designed an EIPA recipe a couple of years ago but never brewed it.  May try it w brett C in secondary
Brian
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Offline bboy9000

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 05:49:43 AM »
Looks like Mitch mentions steam cleaning but not pitch.  I must have got that from somewhere else.
Brian
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 12:39:10 PM »
Thanks for the link.  Pattinson's blog has been a favorite of mine but I haven't read that article.  Still I would bet much oak character made it into the beer.  If they were cleaning with boiling water and sanitizing with sulfur I imagine the oak character dissipated.  Regardless it looks like a good recipe.   I designed an EIPA recipe a couple of years ago but never brewed it.  May try it w brett C in secondary
I don't read Pattinson's blog every day, but it does have some good information for the Homebrewer.

Some have speculated that the unlined barrels allowed the Brett to take hold.

Pitch was used by the Germans and Czechs. I have seen a handful of the old pitch heaters that were used to melt the pitch and spray it into the smaller barrels.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2016, 04:03:38 PM »
If "historic" predates the nineteenth century there's going to be brett and/or other secondary yeast in the yeast culture regardless of the lining of the barrels simply because they lacked the ability to isolate a pure sacc strain.

IMO brett does its best work with a little oxygen (like a carboy with a stopper and airlock) over a pure stainless vessel so I would rack out to another fermentation vessel and let brett work for 3-4 months before packaging. At that point you could decide whether to dry hop or hop in the keg.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2016, 04:45:27 PM »
If "historic" predates the nineteenth century there's going to be brett and/or other secondary yeast in the yeast culture regardless of the lining of the barrels simply because they lacked the ability to isolate a pure sacc strain.

IMO brett does its best work with a little oxygen (like a carboy with a stopper and airlock) over a pure stainless vessel so I would rack out to another fermentation vessel and let brett work for 3-4 months before packaging. At that point you could decide whether to dry hop or hop in the keg.
Yes I am going after a 19th century British IPA. I will probably secondary with Oak to taste, pull the oak, add Brett C, and let it condition. Then into a keg for further storage and serving. That jogged my memory that Brett needs micro-oxygenation, so thanks.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Historic British IPA and Brett C
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2016, 06:54:09 PM »
I have had great results with brett beers aged in just a keg. I am sure our brewing process has more than enough O2 for brett to scavenge especially if we are not brewing low DO.

I was also going to mention that I find the best brett character to come at low 60's F over a long period of time vs warmer temps that can lead to more goaty, sweaty, barnyard, horsey characteristics I am not fond of depending on the strain.

Although Brett C is a bit more forgiving in this realm.