Author Topic: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?  (Read 2495 times)

Online a10t2

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3154
  • Ask me why I don't like Chico!
    • View Profile
    • SeanTerrill.com
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2010, 10:18:36 AM »
Sorry to be the bearer of an unfavorable opinion, but WLP820 is terrible stuff.

 :o This is W206, right? Same as Wyeast 2206? Any chance you have a bum culture? I mean, it's one of the most commonly used lager yeasts in the world, and has been for a century. I guess there's no point in debating flavor online, but I've never had any problems with it. This year's Oktoberfest dropped from 1.054 to 1.014 in ~12 days, and that was the first generation. The maibock that's currently fermenting has dropped from 1.069 to under 1.020 after 9 days (FFT went to 1.012). Both of these were mashed fairly high - with a low single-infusion mash it will get to >85% ADF.

Lazydog: I'm wondering if you under-pitched. I know you made a 3 qt starter, but how was it handled? Airlock, shaking, stirplate? How old was the vial? How confident are you in the temperature? I would typically ferment at 48-50°F, so if it's at 54°F I'm surprised you haven't seen a very fast fermentation.
Beer is like porn. You can buy it, but it's more fun to make your own.
http://seanterrill.com/category/brewing/

Offline dmtaylor

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2010, 11:14:07 AM »
This is W206, right? Same as Wyeast 2206?

WLP820 and Wyeast 2206 are NOT the same.  IMHO, none of the White Labs or Wyeast strains are exactly the same anymore, regardless of what you might read in various sources.  They might have started from the same ancestor (did they? I didn't look it up), but each side has mutated so many hundreds if not millions of times over the past 30 or 40 years that they are quite different now.  Still similar, MAYBE, but definitely not the same.

I mean, think about it -- Nottingham, WLP001, Wyeast 1056, and US-05 supposedly all originated from the same stuff way back when.  Are they the same now?  No.  They might be very similar, and under most circumstances can be used interchangeably, to a point... but many brewers would agree that they are NOT identical.  US-05 seems to attenuate the most, while Nottingham gives some people a mysterious "tartness".  I don't like WLP001, while another guy loves it but despises Wyeast 1056..... these are all similar, but not identical.  Don't believe me?  Try splitting a batch of a wimpy light beer with low hop character sometime, using two or three or four of the different brands that are supposedly "all the same thing".  I'll bet you a zillion dollars that the resulting beers are similar, yes, similar, BUT, also detectably quite different.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline joeysmokedporter

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2010, 04:53:45 AM »
I only used WLP820 once, in a maerzen.  The results were decent although I hadn't yet uncovered a water chemistry issue with alkalinity that imparted some off-flavors.  I did notice the lag in fermentation time, and since switched to 833 for my German lager brewing--have used this for helles, bock and maerzen with great results (flavor and fermentation mgmt).

I am surprised that you only got as much attenuation as you did, even with 820 (for me it got down to final gravity within 3 weeks, diacetyl rest included).  I think someone else mentioned that the yeast in the starter may have had a problem.  Only other thing I can think of is whether you had enough oxygen; this can certainly affect time.  Worst case, make a krausen starter with same/similar OG at 5% of the volume of your beer, with fresh good yeast, and pitch the starter when it comes to krausen.  This could help push it along.
R. Lorber
Westminster, MD

Offline lazydog79

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2010, 01:22:54 PM »
2206 is what I had that was no good.  Wish it had been....  I'm going out of town until Thursday - 3 weeks since pitch.  I'll check it again then.  I hope I get some "magic."

Offline seajellie

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2010, 01:58:42 PM »
LD79, I hope whatever magic happens ... is good magic!

I love the intense aroma and nice flavor from 820. But it's also the consistently worst performing yeast I've ever experienced. Every two years or so I get psyched again to try it. If I decide to use it again, I will buy two tubes and build a single yeast starter using both. I've simply had too many fail to get going properly. Absolutely everything must be sterile when starting this yeast; don't let any wee beasties have an opportunity during the long lag time.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 02:00:20 PM by seajellie »

Offline timmyr

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 08:11:18 PM »
Keep this thread up...I just brewed JZ's Oktoberfest (12-gallons) and split the ferment between WLP820 and WLP833.  OG 1.059 (overshot by 4-points).  WLP833 took off around 15-hours; WLP820 took off 30-hours after pitch.  Both are now chugging and sitting tight at 50F (fermenter temp).  I'd be happy to post my starter size/targets.  I used Mr Malty, 4-vials of each strain, and based on oldest vial of each stir plated starters (1.5 and 3L.)  I'll follow-up with how the two compare in the end.  I've done some searching and found a lot of people who like WLP820 but recommend giving it a long ferment and long lager time.  This seems to follow the information presented on the old episode of The Jamil Show that Dr. Scott hosted on Oktoberfest


Just home from vacation and both kraeusens have fallen.  I started ramping up to 60F today.  The WLP833 has fallen completely and the 820 appears to still have some foam.  More to follow.
Cheers,

Timmy

On
APA
American Brown
Harvest Rye
New England Cider
Soon
More Cider

Offline timmyr

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 08:12:16 PM »
Keep this thread up...I just brewed JZ's Oktoberfest (12-gallons) and split the ferment between WLP820 and WLP833.  OG 1.059 (overshot by 4-points).  WLP833 took off around 15-hours; WLP820 took off 30-hours after pitch.  Both are now chugging and sitting tight at 50F (fermenter temp).  I'd be happy to post my starter size/targets.  I used Mr Malty, 4-vials of each strain, and based on oldest vial of each stir plated starters (1.5 and 3L.)  I'll follow-up with how the two compare in the end.  I've done some searching and found a lot of people who like WLP820 but recommend giving it a long ferment and long lager time.  This seems to follow the information presented on the old episode of The Jamil Show that Dr. Scott hosted on Oktoberfest
That's where I got my recipe too.  The only "tweak" I made was to do a single decoctition during the mash, which is my main concern now.  I was attempting to do Palmer's single decoctition - sach. rest @154, pull a decoc., hold @ 160 for 20 min, boil for 45, and re-mix for mashout.  The big slip I had was that I didn't hold at 160 too well - overshot to 170-ish for about 5 minutes.  Now, I'm hoping my oopsie didn't give me the world's most dextrinous wort!   :-[  I've fallen off to 4-5 burps a minute from the blowoff, and I know the SG is still pretty high, so I am worried.  However, this wouldn't be anything new - I always sit on my fermentations like a nervous mother hen!  ::)

Oh well, this beer isn't in a hurry - don't need it until the end of September.  I'll just stick to the plan and let it hang in the primary for 3 weeks and then see where I'm at.  I was planning to lager it until the beginning of Sept. to give it enough time to carb in the bottle.  We'll see what happens!  Thanks again all!

I'll post my mash schedule once I finally pull it off my voice recorder...need to check my notes....
Cheers,

Timmy

On
APA
American Brown
Harvest Rye
New England Cider
Soon
More Cider

Offline lazydog79

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2010, 12:31:29 PM »
O.k., I pulled a gravity sample today - 1.036 after 23 days   >:(  I think I am officially stuck.  I gave the yeast a little rouse to see if that gets it moving.  The fermentation is still at 54 degrees.  I was originally planning to get it near 1.020 and do a D-rest, but now I'm wondering if a temp bump might not help it get going.  Any other ideas to help get it moving and salvage the batch?

Offline pyrite

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2010, 03:36:45 PM »
I would get a different lager yeast strain, make a starter on a stir plate if you have one, so that it get's maximum aeration and let it finish the job for you.
If you don't get in over your head, how are you ever going to know how tall you are.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2010, 05:23:31 AM »
"Yeast energizer" should do the trick.  It has saved many batches for me.  This is not exactly the same thing as "yeast nutrient".  Look for the energizer.  It takes a long time to ferment out, but it is very likely to help.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)