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Author Topic: Wort Aeration  (Read 7269 times)

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2016, 05:49:41 am »
"Barm" is also the English word for Krausen. Why we use the German term in an English speaking country I don't know. Maybe it has to do with many of the prominent brewers in our country's history being German.

Personally, I specifically use the term barm when I talk about the foam from top cropping yeast. It's full of yeast, and is quite different from the typical bottom fermented krausen. (Unless I'm brewing a German wheat beer.)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline BUZZSAW52

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2016, 05:14:17 am »
I always just shook the fermenter and felt like it was enough until I ran into an obvious problem. I never did starters either and would have told you it wasn't necessary "I've never had a problem" until I dumped a lager because it either ran out of O2 or active yeast. The O2 wand and canister from more beer is the way to go. It's cheap and it works. I also bought a stir plate and always do a starter now. Both are too easily done to skip that step. You are eliminating possible off flavors or complete disasters in my opinion.


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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2016, 07:37:09 am »
I always just shook the fermenter and felt like it was enough until I ran into an obvious problem. I never did starters either and would have told you it wasn't necessary "I've never had a problem" until I dumped a lager because it either ran out of O2 or active yeast. The O2 wand and canister from more beer is the way to go. It's cheap and it works. I also bought a stir plate and always do a starter now. Both are too easily done to skip that step. You are eliminating possible off flavors or complete disasters in my opinion.


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I always do starters now too! as for the o2 wand, I would love one of those but trying to save some cash here so if its something I can do reasonably well with what I have already, im gonna go with that till I have a bit more cash to put into the hobby!

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2016, 08:19:14 am »
I always do starters now too! as for the o2 wand, I would love one of those but trying to save some cash here so if its something I can do reasonably well with what I have already, im gonna go with that till I have a bit more cash to put into the hobby!

I wouldn't worry about investing in more equipment.  Assuming your starters are healthy and of adequate size wort aeration may unnecessary.
Brian
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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2016, 08:23:49 am »
I always do starters now too! as for the o2 wand, I would love one of those but trying to save some cash here so if its something I can do reasonably well with what I have already, im gonna go with that till I have a bit more cash to put into the hobby!

I wouldn't worry about investing in more equipment.  Assuming your starters are healthy and of adequate size wort aeration may unnecessary.

I don't know about that. The yeast need oxygen to multiply and if your starters are large enough to not have to do that, then you are going to have all sorts of other issues.

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 08:43:40 am »
I did say "may" be unnecessary not definitively is unnecessary.  If there is an adequate amount of lipids and sterols already in the wort then the yeast don't need the oxygen as the cells will produce healthy membranes from those in the wort.  I don't leave all of the cold break behind in the kettle, I use yeast nutrient and pitch fresh starters.  Sometimes I'll throw part of an old pack of dry yeast into the kettle to provide the wort with more nutrients.  Combine that with a little rocking the carboy, my yeast likely has everything it needs without me using an O2 wand.  Unless the OP has slow or stalled fermentations oxygen is something he or she may not need to worry about.
Brian
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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2016, 09:00:17 am »
I did say "may" be unnecessary not definitively is unnecessary.  If there is an adequate amount of lipids and sterols already in the wort then the yeast don't need the oxygen as the cells will produce healthy membranes from those in the wort.  I don't leave all of the cold break behind in the kettle, I use yeast nutrient and pitch fresh starters.  Sometimes I'll throw part of an old pack of dry yeast into the kettle to provide the wort with more nutrients.  Combine that with a little rocking the carboy, my yeast likely has everything it needs without me using an O2 wand.  Unless the OP has slow or stalled fermentations oxygen is something he or she may not need to worry about.

While I sort of agree.. and it may be good for some ale fermentation's, I don't agree with lager fermentation's.  If this was the case then big breweries would just pitch discarded yeast and nutrients into the boil and call it a day. But they don't, and Kunze outlines yeast and aeration in almost a full chapter.

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2016, 09:18:23 am »
I did say "may" be unnecessary not definitively is unnecessary.  If there is an adequate amount of lipids and sterols already in the wort then the yeast don't need the oxygen as the cells will produce healthy membranes from those in the wort.  I don't leave all of the cold break behind in the kettle, I use yeast nutrient and pitch fresh starters.  Sometimes I'll throw part of an old pack of dry yeast into the kettle to provide the wort with more nutrients.  Combine that with a little rocking the carboy, my yeast likely has everything it needs without me using an O2 wand.  Unless the OP has slow or stalled fermentations oxygen is something he or she may not need to worry about.

While I sort of agree.. and it may be good for some ale fermentation's, I don't agree with lager fermentation's.  If this was the case then big breweries would just pitch discarded yeast and nutrients into the boil and call it a day. But they don't, and Kunze outlines yeast and aeration in almost a full chapter.

Practices at big breweries do not necessarily translate to the homebrew level. I always pitch a fresh SNS starter, which has been aerated.  Big breweries are likely re-pitching yeast from previous batches which would require oxygenation of wort. Some of this is also likely dependent on yeast strain, OG and style, which you mentioned.

I've never had a problem and I won a competition with a lager done this way (I did shake the crap out of the carboy for five minutes on that one LOL).   The one time I had a sluggish fermentation was when I repitched a month old slurry into a 1.090 wort but that isn't a normal practice for me.

My practices work well for my system and beer styles.  I wouldn't want the OP to go out and spend a lot of money on stuff that isn't necessary.  If he or she makes great beer with current practices then investing in an O2 wand and stir plate is just going to be money out of the bank.
Brian
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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2016, 09:30:08 am »
I did say "may" be unnecessary not definitively is unnecessary.  If there is an adequate amount of lipids and sterols already in the wort then the yeast don't need the oxygen as the cells will produce healthy membranes from those in the wort.  I don't leave all of the cold break behind in the kettle, I use yeast nutrient and pitch fresh starters.  Sometimes I'll throw part of an old pack of dry yeast into the kettle to provide the wort with more nutrients.  Combine that with a little rocking the carboy, my yeast likely has everything it needs without me using an O2 wand.  Unless the OP has slow or stalled fermentations oxygen is something he or she may not need to worry about.

While I sort of agree.. and it may be good for some ale fermentation's, I don't agree with lager fermentation's.  If this was the case then big breweries would just pitch discarded yeast and nutrients into the boil and call it a day. But they don't, and Kunze outlines yeast and aeration in almost a full chapter.

Practices at big breweries do not necessarily translate to the homebrew level. I always pitch a fresh SNS starter, which has been aerated.  Big breweries are likely re-pitching yeast from previous batches which would require oxygenation of wort. Some of this is also likely dependent on yeast strain, OG and style, which you mentioned.

I've never had a problem and I won a competition with a lager done this way (I did shake the crap out of the carboy for five minutes on that one LOL).   The one time I had a sluggish fermentation was when I repitched a month old slurry into a 1.090 wort but that isn't a normal practice for me.

My practices work well for my system and beer styles.  I wouldn't want the OP to go out and spend a lot of money on stuff that isn't necessary.  If he or she makes great beer with current practices then investing in an O2 wand and stir plate is just going to be money out of the bank.

Heh, Big brewery practices always matter, as they have QC departments, and don't do things that don't work or matter. As you know, science doesn't stop working at certain scales.

Healthy yeast, and your methods are certainly great procedure, and I am sure help your product quite a bit. Many can be happy with that, but the people who ask themselves could it be better? Will probably not be.

I am in full agreement with you about the waste of money on an oxygen system and a stir plate, but only because one probably isn't going to buy a DO meter to go along with it, and pure O2 without a DO meter is probably more detrimental than having it.

As always these are just the opinions I have formed after 800+ lager beer fermentation's. What works for me, and what I do, hasn't always followed the masses. I always say if a person is happy with the product they make, thats what this hobby is all about. Thankfully, I can finally follow that credo myself now.

If you are curious about some of the brewing texts, hit me up, and we can chat.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 09:32:33 am by The Beerery »

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2016, 09:33:31 am »
If this was the case then big breweries would just pitch discarded yeast...

...Kunze outlines yeast and aeration in almost a full chapter.
I'm also betting that in addition to repitching slurry macro brewers are also filtering the heck out of wort transferring very little fatty acids and sterols to the FV.  Just a guess though as I haven't read Kunze.  Brewing is an obsession for me but I'm not going to spend $200 on a book.
Brian
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Offline bboy9000

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2016, 09:37:03 am »
What you mentioned about the DO meter is true.  Over oxygenating is just as bad.  I'm guessing most that buy wands aren't actually measuring DO and are blindly injecting O2.
Brian
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Offline denny

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2016, 10:04:07 am »
I don't know about that. The yeast need oxygen to multiply and if your starters are large enough to not have to do that, then you are going to have all sorts of other issues.

What are the other issues?
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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2016, 10:07:11 am »
I don't know about that. The yeast need oxygen to multiply and if your starters are large enough to not have to do that, then you are going to have all sorts of other issues.

What are the other issues?

The issues from over pitching?

Offline denny

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2016, 10:17:09 am »
I don't know about that. The yeast need oxygen to multiply and if your starters are large enough to not have to do that, then you are going to have all sorts of other issues.

What are the other issues?

The issues from over pitching?

I guess you could call it overpitching, although I'd call it pitching an adequate amount of healthy yeast.  But whatever you cal it, what are the issues you've experienced?
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The Beerery

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Re: Wort Aeration
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2016, 10:24:33 am »
I don't know about that. The yeast need oxygen to multiply and if your starters are large enough to not have to do that, then you are going to have all sorts of other issues.

What are the other issues?

The issues from over pitching?

I guess you could call it overpitching, although I'd call it pitching an adequate amount of healthy yeast.  But whatever you cal it, what are the issues you've experienced?

I'm confused. I was stating that if you are making a starter to allow for non-oxygenation of wort (which is basically impossible, cause then you would be technically repitching, and repitched slurries require just as much if not more oxygen and nutrients). Then you would be having overpitching issues.
I wouldn't call something like that an adequate amount of yeast, thats too much. Targeting the normal pitch rates is the adequate amount of healthy yeast.

From my experience I am a slurry user almost always. I harvest almost pure yeast out of the primary with my trub separation techniques. For best flavor and yeast health, I like to see my yeast growth approximately double each pitch.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/lager-yeast-there-has-to-be-an-easier-way/

« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 10:28:55 am by The Beerery »