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Author Topic: starting all grain brewing  (Read 5757 times)

Offline denny

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2016, 11:53:23 am »

Just bought one myself, Denny. Curious to use it. I don't have a lot of dead space in my cooler, but being able to take out the braid brings the drain point closer to the edge. So I'm assuming it should cut the dead space down to very little. Definitely looks like a better fine filter. We'll see.

My drain is so close to the bottom that I have nothing to gain in that regard.  I think if you have a poor braid it would definitely be an improvement.  I don't so for me it's more of a curiosity/learning experience.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2016, 12:10:06 pm »
My drain is so close to the bottom that I have nothing to gain in that regard


Truthfully, if I'd stuck with the Cheap n Easy mini keg bung, I wouldn't either. :) But I tinkered and put in a bulkhead conversion with a SS valve that increased my dead space a little. Hasn't been a big deal - the efficiency difference wasn't much. I just wanted to try one of the bags. By the looks of it, it ought to filter better than any braid.
Jon H.

Offline denny

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2016, 12:42:14 pm »

Truthfully, if I'd stuck with the Cheap n Easy mini keg bung, I wouldn't either. :) But I tinkered and put in a bulkhead conversion with a SS valve that increased my dead space a little. Hasn't been a big deal - the efficiency difference wasn't much. I just wanted to try one of the bags. By the looks of it, it ought to filter better than any braid.

I put a bulkhead in mine for 2 brews, then went back to the bung.  With the bulkhead there was to much dead space and too little flow control.  Nearly every person I've talked to with a bulkhead has worse performance than my minikeg bung.  Fancier doesn't necessarily equate to better, huh?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2016, 12:43:29 pm »
By the looks of it, it ought to filter better than any braid.

This is something I'm interested in.  I can't imagine how it would be better than my braid, since there's noting wrong with the braid.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2016, 12:50:41 pm »
By the looks of it, it ought to filter better than any braid.

This is something I'm interested in.  I can't imagine how it would be better than my braid, since there's noting wrong with the braid.


Yeah. I didn't have any complaints with my braid per se, but that bag mesh is super fine. Finer than the paint strainer bags I use to keg hop.
Jon H.

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2016, 10:34:58 pm »
We should talk about crushing.



What we care about here is the Acrospire. When we crush that, and it is exposed to oxygen the Lipogenases(LOX) will start the oxidation process. When the malt is added to hot water that is also saturated in oxygen hot side aeration occurs. Coarseness of crush, is a factor in this. The finer, the more Acrospire reacting to oxygen you have. Some European breweries even sift it out completely.
Yeah because sifting won't cause any extended exposure to air and potential oxidation issues.

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The Beerery

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starting all grain brewing
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2016, 05:21:12 am »
We should talk about crushing.



What we care about here is the Acrospire. When we crush that, and it is exposed to oxygen the Lipogenases(LOX) will start the oxidation process. When the malt is added to hot water that is also saturated in oxygen hot side aeration occurs. Coarseness of crush, is a factor in this. The finer, the more Acrospire reacting to oxygen you have. Some European breweries even sift it out completely.
Yeah because sifting won't cause any extended exposure to air and potential oxidation issues.

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You are correct, as it's done in nitrogen purged grist cases. 







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« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 05:51:32 am by The Beerery »

Offline narcout

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2016, 08:48:54 am »
Here's what it contains: Fermenter’s Favorites® Hot Liquor Tank
Fermenter’s Favorites® Mash/Lauter Tun
Titan 11.5" Stainless Steel False Bottom
Bronze Ball Valve Cooler Kit with Barbed Hose Fittings (QTY: 2)
Siphon Sprayer
Thermoplastic Tubing 3/8” ID
Hi-Temp Clear Vinyl Tubing 3/8” ID
Teflon Tape
Worm Clamps (x2)
Instructions
 I was wondering if there would be a significant problem because of the difference in head space between the 7 gallon cooler and 10 gallon cooler, as far as keeping a constant temperatures? Maybe I'm overthinking this, I just want to make sure I get the right equipment for what I want to do. Thanks for any help!

That's the Northern Brewer starter kit right?

It's set up for fly sparging (which is totally fine), but you might want to consider batch sparging at first as it's easier and requires less equipment.

If I were you, I would skip the kit and put together my own mashtun with either a braided hose or one of these: http://www.northernbrewer.com/mash-boil-screen-6

That will save you quite a bit of money.  And if you decide that you want to switch to fly sparging later on, you can just buy a false bottom (and if necessary a separate insulated hot liquor tank), and you'll be ready to rock.


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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2016, 01:01:21 pm »
We should talk about crushing.



What we care about here is the Acrospire. When we crush that, and it is exposed to oxygen the Lipogenases(LOX) will start the oxidation process. When the malt is added to hot water that is also saturated in oxygen hot side aeration occurs. Coarseness of crush, is a factor in this. The finer, the more Acrospire reacting to oxygen you have. Some European breweries even sift it out completely.
Yeah because sifting won't cause any extended exposure to air and potential oxidation issues.

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You are correct, as it's done in nitrogen purged grist cases. 







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And how do you accomplish this at a homebrew scale?

It's one thing to talk about the professional processes, and methods while offering possible solutions how to accomplish that at the HB scale.  However snipping text from a professional scale brewing science book is another animal.  If 'we' are going to talk about milling, then I think 'we' should suggest realistic solutions and plans for the best product we can make.  Otherwise it's like asking Google/Alexa, "How do professional breweries do this" but having no means or equipment to replicate the process.

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The Beerery

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2016, 01:19:29 pm »
You stated oxidation. I posted you the separation and the method to ensure the oxidation you pointed out wouldn't happen. I posted a way to do it on our scale and you questioned it, so I provided you with the information to prove it. Sooo, I am not following your logic here.

Here is the link again:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/grain-conditioning/
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:33:56 pm by The Beerery »

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2016, 07:06:33 pm »
I am questioning your logic, not to be combative but to help other brewers make the best beer they can.  I struggle with the LODO brewing methodology. You are not wet milling, your not purging your set up for milling with inert gases, your not sifting, your not limiting exposure to oxygen with "mash cap" pie tins.  I just don't understand your proposed theory.  The set ups you offer from your website is still permeable.  If it is not leak proof, its not limiting dissolved oxygen.  Henry's law isn't assessed into your proposed process.  There is just too many holes, and questions in your 'solutions'  While trying to focus on helping everyone learn more about their homebrew, answer questions, and give advice. I truly have to say I don't think that is being accomplished with lodo brewing or the hypotheses backing them up.
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Big Monk

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2016, 07:53:58 pm »
I am questioning your logic, not to be combative but to help other brewers make the best beer they can.  I struggle with the LODO brewing methodology. You are not wet milling, your not purging your set up for milling with inert gases, your not sifting, your not limiting exposure to oxygen with "mash cap" pie tins.  I just don't understand your proposed theory.  The set ups you offer from your website is still permeable.  If it is not leak proof, its not limiting dissolved oxygen.  Henry's law isn't assessed into your proposed process.  There is just too many holes, and questions in your 'solutions'  While trying to focus on helping everyone learn more about their homebrew, answer questions, and give advice. I truly have to say I don't think that is being accomplished with lodo brewing or the hypotheses backing them up.

Many of the members here who are reading Kunze, making process changes and brewing Low Oxygen beers would disagree with your assessment.

A mini mash may be a good option for you if you want to get past the theory and taste the results. A few mason jars, NaMeta and a pot would be all you need. Give it a shot.

The Beerery

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2016, 05:50:34 am »
I am questioning your logic, not to be combative but to help other brewers make the best beer they can.  I struggle with the LODO brewing methodology. You are not wet milling, your not purging your set up for milling with inert gases, your not sifting, your not limiting exposure to oxygen with "mash cap" pie tins.  I just don't understand your proposed theory.  The set ups you offer from your website is still permeable.  If it is not leak proof, its not limiting dissolved oxygen.  Henry's law isn't assessed into your proposed process.  There is just too many holes, and questions in your 'solutions'  While trying to focus on helping everyone learn more about their homebrew, answer questions, and give advice. I truly have to say I don't think that is being accomplished with lodo brewing or the hypotheses backing them up.


I think you are missing some major points so let me explain this to you. First off if you think these are my  ideals, you are wrong. These are proven scientific facts by people much smarter than me. These same people are world renown teachers/names in the brewing industry. I am merely trying to adapt these teachings on a homebrew scale.

If you look again back to the posts snippets I posted it talks about whole grain conditioning, which I then linked you to our whole grain conditioning post, so there is a correlation I think you missed. But you are correct in the fact we are NOT wet milling, nor gassing, we need to get those grains into deoxygenated water as fast as possible after milling, I personally try to target less than 5 minutes from crush to dough in.
Here though is where I think you really stray.  We are limiting exposure with our "mash caps" and here is why...
First thing we do is boil our water, its a very cheap and easy way to knock out all DO and before you bring up Henry's law again, I realize that doesn't stop it...But metabisulfite does.. and we use it. We preboil the water, THEN we dose it with meta. Meta is a very active o2 scavenger. This coupled with the "mash caps" engage the square cube law, therefore stopping Henry's law from effecting us. We don't need it to be airtight or leak proof because we have a smaller surface area AND meta actively working for us. To further back this up, I have taken DO readings at every possible stage which corroborate with what I have talked about above. That and the fact that I and literally hundreds of others have seen the same improvements when using these methods.

I welcome you to try the method or purchase a DO meter and see what you find, I am always looking for more data!

Hope this clears some stuff up.





Offline denny

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2016, 10:43:52 am »
Being the instigator of many thread drifts, I understand how it happens, but remember, this is about starting all grain brewing!  ;)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline chinaski

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Re: starting all grain brewing
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2016, 06:47:34 pm »
Amen Denny!  This might be a time for those who want to discuss the technical minutia to PM one another or start another thread.  Let's not scare away new brewers with so many details that they never get started!