Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor  (Read 13102 times)

Offline Hand of Dom

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2016, 10:43:33 am »
Yes, I'm finding that as little as 1% roasted malts have a huge effect. I have an altbier that is about 11 SRM on tap that used around 1% carafa III and the roast character is quite apparent to me. The same was true with my last Vienna lager that used around 1% for coloring and was about 10 SRM. Never had it be so apparent before low oxygen. My black IPA, which is 7% midnight wheat, is super coffee/chocolate, more than usual; it's definitely overpowering the hops that are usually much more pronounced.


Definitely sounds like some rethinking is in order on using lodo and roasted malts together. If my stout is a tad roastier than I planned, it's generally ok because I like roasty stouts. But a beer that shouldn't be roasty ending up that way because I adjusted color with a little Carafa III or Midnight Wheat is another issue altogether. Gonna cut back on most, but it's kinda hard to adjust to your target color yet cut back, and retain the target color.

Could you steep the colour grains in untreated (for LODO) water, then dose with SMB before adding to the boil?
Dom

Currently drinking - Amarillo saison
Currently fermenting - Pale ale 1 - 2017

Offline brewinhard

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3272
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2016, 11:39:04 am »
Interesting. Wonder if those that reported it did not account for a proper mash pH?

I don't account for Sinamar in my mash pH because it doesn't go in the mash.

True, but I was thinking along the lines that maybe the initial mash pH was low to begin with resulting in that off-flavor later down the process.

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2016, 11:40:32 am »
I use .5% carafa II for flavor and color, and use the rest sinamar. No off flavors that I have found. I mash all beers at 5.2.

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2016, 11:51:55 am »
This would definitely be a time to revisit throwing roasted malts in at the end of the mash. Might complicate full volume pH measurements though, bring the pH down further, than the already mashed pH of 5.2...
Jesse

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2016, 12:07:03 pm »
The IGORs at Experimental Brewing are doing a test with Brewtan.  Not completely LODO but one participant is brewing a CDA.  Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/brewtan-or-do-oxygen-scavenging-chemicals-change-beer-character
"Extremely complex methodology"? This hints that they're looking to prove it wrong, but without measuring the dissolved oxygen, it is hardly a valid experiment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We're testing Brewtan B, not LODO.n We're not looking to prove anything right or wrong....we simply want to see what, if any, the effects of Brewtan B are.

While I am sure my opinion is far from something most want to hear, and having used BTB, and many other non-commercial, and commercial means of trying to control oxidization pre and post ferment I think I need to chime in here.

Are you guys seeing an improvement in the beers used with BTB? Absolutely! Is it cause of oxidation? Yes. Is BTB an antioxidant then? No.

Think of BTB as a whirfloc for heavy metals and undesirables. Is it going to actively protect the malt and water from oxygen? No. I know first hand with my DO meter and tests. However its on the cold side where it comes to help you and this is why.
Fermenting beer is basically void of all o2. When an accelerated laging process is used( sulfur is going to be focred out), improperly purged kegs are used, dryhopping is used, or any/all of those you are going to pick up oxygen in your transfers/hoping. When this small amount of oxygen is picked up it can and will react with what it can, namely metals in the wort. These fenton reactions are going to happen and will start accelerating the aging carbonyls and they can produce anything from muted flavors to full on cardboard and sherry. This is dependent on how much "metal" you have in your wort(ascorbic acid can do the same things as well). SO, what the BTB is doing for you is that you are trying to precipitate( whirfloc reference again) these metals, and leave as many behind as you can before you get to the fermenter/packaging where these things can take place. Even if one uses all SS, you could have not fully passivated SS and still see some of the reactions( though thats not likely, but still possible), so its not like chaning over to all SS, and RO will be your saving grace.( But it will certainly help).

Offline brewinhard

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3272
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2016, 05:09:02 pm »
I currently have several brewtan beers under my belt now, and while I feel that the brewtan has somewhat "smoothed" out my final product, I am by no means sold on it as being a silver bullet. I did not see a huge, drastic jump in beer quality that I was producing with just the addition of BTB.
As you stated, I could see how this product could be used to minimize metal ions in the finished beer but one still needs to account for minimizing oxygen ingress at all steps. Just my 2 cents (and I am sure others will probably agree).

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2911
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2016, 07:11:46 pm »
Let's keep this thread on track. No Brewtan, just the effects of LODO on roast flavors.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline bboy9000

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 703
  • KCMO
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2016, 07:42:54 pm »
Let's keep this thread on track. No Brewtan, just the effects of LODO on roast flavors.
Sorry that wasn't my intent.  I just meant that BTB was one possible variable of LODO brewing that could be a factor for more intense roast flavor.  I realize BTB itself isn't lowering O2 just the  compounds that can react with O2.    It's a tool LODO brewers use.  If Denny and Drew find that BTB increases roast perception then we know what causes it.  I wasn't trying to start an argument over their experiment or BTB.  I do think  one has to consider BTB as a factor in this discussion as it seems most LODO brewers use it.
Brian
mobrewer

Offline bboy9000

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 703
  • KCMO
LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2016, 09:29:56 pm »
The IGORs at Experimental Brewing are doing a test with Brewtan.  Not completely LODO but one participant is brewing a CDA.  Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/brewtan-or-do-oxygen-scavenging-chemicals-change-beer-character
"Extremely complex methodology"? This hints that they're looking to prove it wrong, but without measuring the dissolved oxygen, it is hardly a valid experiment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We're testing Brewtan B, not LODO.n We're not looking to prove anything right or wrong....we simply want to see what, if any, the effects of Brewtan B are.
Then Drew might want to change the title of the post he submitted as it refers to Brewtan as an oxygen scavenging chemical.

I'll move this part of the discussion to the Brewtan B thread as to not further detail this one.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 09:34:51 pm by bboy9000 »
Brian
mobrewer

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2016, 06:40:40 am »
Quite. Brewtan B is NOT low oxygen brewing. I definitely notice a far bigger jump in beer quality with low oxygen brewing than I did with Brewtan B. I'm all stainless now too though, so I've been considering not even using the Brewtan. But I have it, so I might as well...

But back on topic, I would like to get my hands on sinamar. Is it something that needs to be used FRESH like liquid malt extract?
It's sad that 1% has such an effect. But I guess it'll make me find new ways to brew and create recipes. I was going to do a Marzen that is about 11 SRM tomorrow, but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation, just for kicks. Maybe I don't even need roast malt. The only dark beers I really brew that I don't want too much roastiness in are black IPA and occasionally schwarzbier (rarely).
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 06:43:41 am by beersk »
Jesse

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2016, 06:46:35 am »
but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation


Sounds like a plan. My Marzen is ~ 8.5 SRM on just Vienna and 10L Munich.
Jon H.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10710
  • Milford, MI
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2016, 07:28:49 am »
Quite. Brewtan B is NOT low oxygen brewing. I definitely notice a far bigger jump in beer quality with low oxygen brewing than I did with Brewtan B. I'm all stainless now too though, so I've been considering not even using the Brewtan. But I have it, so I might as well...

But back on topic, I would like to get my hands on sinamar. Is it something that needs to be used FRESH like liquid malt extract?
It's sad that 1% has such an effect. But I guess it'll make me find new ways to brew and create recipes. I was going to do a Marzen that is about 11 SRM tomorrow, but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation, just for kicks. Maybe I don't even need roast malt. The only dark beers I really brew that I don't want too much roastiness in are black IPA and occasionally schwarzbier (rarely).
You may be all stainless, but malt will introduce trace elements in the wort. Found this.
http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/R0900_Ruth_Martin.pdf
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2016, 07:31:35 am »
So let me address a few things here....

BTB is not a thing low oxygen brewers outside this circle really use, we don't really see a need for it. I have many BTB free beers that are just are fresh as the day they were spunded 8 months into kegging. Since we are using yeast and sulfur as our scavengers, there isn't these fenton reactions, so soon.

@Beersk, German recipe literature say 1% max of roastmalz, there really isn't a need for more, but if for some reason you want to, Sinamar is your answer. My last bottle lasted me a year, with no issues.

Make sure and take about 20% off the color when lox oxygen brewing, your old recipes will no longer be the same color. The oxidation browning will not be adding to SRM.

Also be very wary of the CO2 you use, simply force carbing has enough oxygen potential to oxidize a batch by itself. This is why sulfur fades in the keg ;)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 07:38:08 am by The Beerery »

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2016, 07:33:45 am »
Quite. Brewtan B is NOT low oxygen brewing. I definitely notice a far bigger jump in beer quality with low oxygen brewing than I did with Brewtan B. I'm all stainless now too though, so I've been considering not even using the Brewtan. But I have it, so I might as well...

But back on topic, I would like to get my hands on sinamar. Is it something that needs to be used FRESH like liquid malt extract?
It's sad that 1% has such an effect. But I guess it'll make me find new ways to brew and create recipes. I was going to do a Marzen that is about 11 SRM tomorrow, but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation, just for kicks. Maybe I don't even need roast malt. The only dark beers I really brew that I don't want too much roastiness in are black IPA and occasionally schwarzbier (rarely).
You may be all stainless, but malt will introduce trace elements in the wort. Found this.
http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/R0900_Ruth_Martin.pdf

YAY! I love it, I love people going out and doing research! I was always careful to point out there are other sources as well.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: LODO Impact on Roast Flavor
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2016, 07:38:31 am »
Quite. Brewtan B is NOT low oxygen brewing. I definitely notice a far bigger jump in beer quality with low oxygen brewing than I did with Brewtan B. I'm all stainless now too though, so I've been considering not even using the Brewtan. But I have it, so I might as well...

But back on topic, I would like to get my hands on sinamar. Is it something that needs to be used FRESH like liquid malt extract?
It's sad that 1% has such an effect. But I guess it'll make me find new ways to brew and create recipes. I was going to do a Marzen that is about 11 SRM tomorrow, but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation, just for kicks. Maybe I don't even need roast malt. The only dark beers I really brew that I don't want too much roastiness in are black IPA and occasionally schwarzbier (rarely).
You may be all stainless, but malt will introduce trace elements in the wort. Found this.
http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/R0900_Ruth_Martin.pdf


Good info. Thanks for posting.
Jon H.