[Stevie]

I thought of the infection argument at first, but then decided it isn't all that valid as it would apply to regular bottle primed beers as well. I guess an infection wouldn't be evident in an FFT, but it likely wouldn't be in "standard" practice either.

[Phil_M]

From my (limited) experience, if I bottle condition normally (let it ferment out, rack on top of primings in the bottling bucket, etc.) I have beers that stay fresh longer than if I keg. I'm wondering if you bottle promptly after the end of fermentation, but before the yeast have all dropped out...if those greater numbers of still almost-active yeast help.

If done properly, sounding in the bottle is no different than a regular bottling process from a bottle bomb risk standpoint. Even traditional methods can result in an infection. The problem lies in the accuracy of the measurements, but I don't see that being an issue. I could see a test batch to find FG (In my limited experience a FFT isn't that precise) then use that data to spund a second batch.

[Big Monk]

1.) Given how robust the bottles from Westmalle, Chimay and Rochefort are, I can't see carbing them repeatedly at volumes well below their limit introducing any defects to the glass. I'm pretty sure Westvleteren and others actually give you a discount if you return the bottles to the Abbey.

2.) I'm with Phil in that this method introduces no new failure mechanisms over standard bottle priming. The key is a.) conservatism, b.) FFT and c.) calculating residual carbonation with the correct temperature.

3.) Bryan's method for conducting an FFT seems like the best I've seen: pull a sample of the actual batch, that way you have the exact same wort and yeast.

4.) Joe, you are exactly right with the O2 exposure. Actively fermenting beer will be devoid of oxygen and they will scrub any pickup from racking. The other thing to remember is that I'm proposing mimicking the Trappist method of adding primary yeast at bottling without the extra step. It's like conducting a monastic "refermentation" in the bottle and naturally carving in one step.



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[Phil_M]

Derek, I've got a co-worker who is big into brewing Belgian beers, especially ones with Brett. He swears by those green cap-able champagne bottles whenever carbonation levels could get extreme. I forget the max volume he quoted me, but it was over 5 volumes. Might not be a bad investment for those starting out. I've got a brett saison bulk aging in secondary, I've been planning on buying some for that beer.

[Big Monk]

I've got about 2 cases each of Westmalle, Chimay and Rochefort bottles, which at 14 bottles per batch, is plenty good to get the job done. I have quite a few W 16 oz bottles as well.

This thought process is leading up to a Belgian run I'm planning using Low Oxygen. The goal is to create a set of beers that takes advantage of the malt flavor intensity from Low Oxygen cara malts and gets away from syrups and exotic sugars. I'm thinking as follows:

Malts - Looking at the Weyermann Malt Color Wheels I've identified the following as an ideal set of malts to craft all 4 beers: Pilsner, Pale Ale, CaraMunich II, CaraBohemian, CaraAroma, Carafa Special III and Sauermalz.

Yeast - I like 3787 and would like to do a run where I get comfortable with what it's capable of.

Hops - Saaz, Styrian and Magnum.

Sugars - Table sugar, Turbinado and Dark Brown.


"Monk" - A Trappist Single with a Pils/Pale blend, a smidgen of CaraMunich II, enough Sauermalz to get to 5.2, Sweet Orange Peel and Coriander. 1.049 OG, around 5 SRM and around 30 IBU.

"Two Monks" - A Dubbel with the same base blend, CaraBohemian, CaraAroma, a smidgen of Carafa Special III for color and enough Sauermalz to get to 5.2. This will get a sugar blend of Turbinado and Dark Brown. 1.064 OG, around 17 SRM and around 24 IBU.

"Three Monks" - A straightforward Tripel with base malt blend, a smidgen of CaraMunich II, enough Sauermalz to get to 5.2 and Table sugar. 1.076 OG, around 5 SRM and around 36 IBU.

"Four Monks" - A Dark Strong with the same base blend, CaraBohemian, CaraAroma, a smidgen of Carafa Special III for color and enough Sauermalz to get to 5.2. This will get a sugar blend of Turbinado and Dark Brown as well, with the ratio being heavier towards Dark Brown for color. 1.088 OG, around 22 SRM and around 29 IBU.

Sorry to unload all that but I was planning on it anyway and this seemed like the right thread. I guess.


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[Joe Sr.]

What would you brew for a "Big Monk" recipe? A quad?

Good luck with the bottle spunding. I've only had one bottle crack in some 20+ years of brewing but I still worry. I had a couple batches of saison that kept going after bottling some years ago but those were all in corked champagne bottles and they held a massive amount of carbonation. Maybe that's the way to go.

[Big Monk]

Maybe "Big Monk" can be a spiced holiday version of "Four Monks". Or I can call it "Jolly Monks".

Honestly I'm conservatively estimating 3.1 vol/CO2 from 4+ vol/CO2 bottles. I think I'll be good but I'll take everyone's concern into serious consideration.


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[Philbrew]

If "bottle spunding" is bottling straight from the primary before the beer is fermented out, a college roommate and I bottled 6,000 quarts that way back in the day.  It can be done safely but you need to be very familiar with your recipe and process.

One big drawback is there will be A LOT more sediment in each bottle.

A second drawback is that, to hit your target carbonation, you have to bottle when the beer is ready.  If that's going to be at 3:00 AM, you set your alarm.

[Big Monk]

Another option would be to let the beer ferment out and use Spiese to add fermentable extract.


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[Joe Sr.]

I think the biggest concern is new or inexperienced Brewers doing this and not having the base of knowledge to do it safely.

You've obviously given it a lot of thought and have considered the risks.

[Big Monk]

I think the biggest concern is new or inexperienced Brewers doing this and not having the base of knowledge to do it safely.

You've obviously given it a lot of thought and have considered the risks.

Understood Joe and that's why I definitely advocate conservatism, i.e. aiming low.

[Philbrew]

Traditional bottling procedure (transfer to bottling bucket, etc.) exposes the beer to a lot of O2.  Bottling straight from the primary using this priming method reduces that considerably. 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23215.msg296546#msg296546

I prime the bottles then bottle from the valve on the BMB fermenter..



1,164 bottles done this way so far.

Question:  Could a small amount of SMB in the priming syrup help scavenge O2 while the yeast is waking up to bottle carbonate?  Or do you want a little O2 in there for yeast growth?

[Big Monk]

I think the main thing I'm after is replicating Trappist "re fermentation" in the bottle without having to dose with yeast and sugar at finishing gravity.

[brewinhard]

Traditional bottling procedure (transfer to bottling bucket, etc.) exposes the beer to a lot of O2.  Bottling straight from the primary using this priming method reduces that considerably. 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23215.msg296546#msg296546

I prime the bottles then bottle from the valve on the BMB fermenter..



1,164 bottles done this way so far.

Question:  Could a small amount of SMB in the priming syrup help scavenge O2 while the yeast is waking up to bottle carbonate?  Or do you want a little O2 in there for yeast growth?

I don't think you will want to add any unnecessary SMB to your beer unless it warrants it. I also don't think the yeast are going to experience a "growth" phase during bottle conditioning. There are just simply not enough sugars available for them to do this. I could be wrong about this, and maybe someone else will chime in on this too.

[Big Monk]

The main driver for trying to perfect this for ales is two-fold:

1.) I'm trying to eliminate any steps that introduce Oxygen between fermentation and bottling.

2.) Natural carbonation without the addition of anything else.

Like I said in the OP, these breweries (Trappists, Duvel, St. Bernardus, etc.) are all adding yeast at bottling, sometimes primary yeast, sometimes otherwise.

The reasoning being that with most of these beers, being 7-8% and above, you get a more controlled and predictable carbonation and maturation with yeast AND sugar.

This will take some testing and observation to get right. Playing with pitch rates, trub separation, etc. will all affect the final product.


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