Author Topic: decoction mashing / home brewing myths  (Read 2922 times)

Offline curtdogg

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decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« on: December 05, 2016, 01:17:29 AM »
What sparked this topic?
I was watching the you tube checking out homebrew videos. One of the topics in the video was mash temps and how they effect the finished product. I saw a lengthy and somewhat interesting comment.

" High temperature mashing does not induce body in beer and low temperatures do not create light bodied beer. It is an idea that home brewers have been led to believe, which is not true. Body is formed from complex starch called amylo-pectin. The starch is located at the tips of the kernel and it is heat resistant. The various temperatures used in the single infusion method are not high enough to cause complex starch to enter into solution. The starch enters into solution beginning at 76/77C. Decoction mashing releases the starch before enzymes become denatured. When mash is boiled the starch bursts and when the mash cools down it jells due to pectin. Dextrinization occurs at 65C. When dextrinization occurs, A and B limit dextrin forms. Limit dextrin is responsible for body. Limit dextrin is non-fermentable sugar which is tasteless. It is not to be confused with sweet tasting, non-fermentable sugar formed when Alpha liquefies simple starch called amylose. Body and sweetness are not to be confused. Again, it is something that home brewers have been led to believe because the method used by home brewers does nothing in regards to body. It is a story conceived by marketers.The single method is used by the IOB and EBC as a testing method. It was never a brewing method and it still isn't a brewing method, except in the world of home and craft brewing. Award winning home made beer was judged by BJCP judges who are under tutelage of Lord Charlie, the ruler of the home made beer kingdom. This is what took place when the beer was produced. When stabilizer was added, pH was reduce to a range below the optimum of the enzyme in action at 69F. Enzymatic action was negatively impacted. Since, there was no indication of a temperature (low temperature) being used which activates Beta, conversion did not occur. Conversion takes place when Beta converts simple sugar called glucose which is formed by Alpha during liquefaction of amylose (saccharification). Beta converts glucose into complex types of sugar called maltose and malto-trios. Perhaps, there is a reason for malt being called malt. Saccharification and conversion are not one and the same. When home brewers use the single method there is no reason for using a second fermentation vessel. During second fermentation another type of conversion takes place. Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest, is absorbed by yeast through the cell walls and glucose is expelled. The glucose becomes fuel during second fermentation and gravity decreases. During the aging cycle, yeast absorbs malto-triose and expels glucose and natural carbonation takes place. There is absolutely no reason that beer has to be primed or artificially carbonated when it is produced from a true brewing method"

I understand some of these things the commenter is touching on (Sacchrification, fermentable and non fermentable sugars, Alpha and Beta enzymes etc.). He went on to add 10 steps / suggestions on how to perform a decoction mash.
 I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt. This fella seems like he has a huge chip on his shoulder when it comes to home brewing. (Seems like a beer snob to me). Its hard for a newbie like myself to weed out the truths in something like this especially when it seems that theres an anit-homebrewing undertone. How much of this is true?
 I've always been interested in processes and procedures in general, I guess that's what drew me to home brewing in the first place. If their is such a thing, what is the easiest way for a home brewer to tackle the decoction mash? Are their any good, step by step articles you can recommend reading?

Thanks guys and gals.
Curtdogg

Offline The Beerery

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decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 01:26:42 AM »
I don't know what video you were watching, nor have I seen the comment before, but I know exactly who made it. VLad. He is a very knowledgeable guy and what he is saying is true. Decoction is king, it will gain you access to more starch, and will actually allow you achieve over 100% efficiency because so. HOWEVER! What he does not touch on is oxygen, decoction mashes on the homebrew scale are disasters for oxygen ingress on the hot side. A nice compromise is the hochkurz mash using temperature ramping instead of decoction. I 110% stand behind that. I mash every beer at 64/72/77c.


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« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 01:29:34 AM by The Beerery »
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Offline curtdogg

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2016, 01:54:19 AM »
Thank You I will look into the step infusion for my future brews. I know there are options for it in Beersmith.

https://youtu.be/LyvVE-t_Trc

The gentleman's name is Michael James.

Are their a lot of people that don't care for the BJCP?


Offline The Beerery

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 02:05:57 AM »
Thank You I will look into the step infusion for my future brews. I know there are options for it in Beersmith.

https://youtu.be/LyvVE-t_Trc

The gentleman's name is Michael James.

Are their a lot of people that don't care for the BJCP?

Yea his online persona is VLadoftrub on HBT.

I would look at braukaiser for insights on the mashing regimens.

I am not a fan of BJCP either, but I just let it be.

Good luck!
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Offline curtdogg

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2016, 02:09:29 AM »
Atm I use a cooler mash tun.
Do you think I can step mash with out herms and recirulation?

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Offline The Beerery

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2016, 02:12:29 AM »
Atm I use a cooler mash tun.
Do you think I can step mash with out herms and recirulation?

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Yea it will be with hot water infusions.
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Offline curtdogg

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2016, 02:13:39 AM »
Are their guidelines on quarts per lbs?

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Offline The Beerery

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 02:15:54 AM »
Are their guidelines on quarts per lbs?

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Try and keep the beta and alpha under 3. 
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Offline curtdogg

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2016, 02:17:01 AM »
Thank you, I'll read up on it.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2016, 02:45:28 AM »
Thank You I will look into the step infusion for my future brews. I know there are options for it in Beersmith.

https://youtu.be/LyvVE-t_Trc

The gentleman's name is Michael James.

Are their a lot of people that don't care for the BJCP?

BJCP? There are some that don't care for it, there was a thread on here where there were negative comments as to the quality of judges.

Charlie has not been involved with the BJCP for a long time, it is a separate entity from the AHA and BA. They split in 1995 if an old club newsletter is correct. The AHA went their own way for a while with guidelines, but in 2000 accepted the BJCP guidelines for competitions. All to bring folks up to speed.

British Brewers do single steps. Many craft breweries learned to brew on a commercial scale in England in the 1980s, so that is why many craft breweries do it. That works fine with British and American malts that are designed for it.

German Brewers? Well some still decoct, some are said to not, and there are some that only decoct certain beers. 
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2016, 11:39:16 AM »
In this comment he says there is no reason to ferment an ale based on any temperature ranges suggested by the labs they come from.  Only ferment Ales at 50C for primary, OG is 1.053-60 when SG reaches 1.015 transfer to a secondary at 10C, rack to a keg and hold for 4 months and the beer will self carbonate by absorbing maltotriose and expel glucose which provides fuel for natural carbonation.  That there is no reason to introduce artificial priming methods when you have sound brewing methods.

So I wonder how weissbiers are consumed in less than 3 months after fg has been reached and carbonated to 3.5-5vols.  Then I have to ask has the process been around since the 16th century in the Bavarian forest.  This is how all brew masters did it back then, so nothing should ever change.  I wonder how this guy found out about yeast then...  This guy seems to have picked up a few books from the library and because he found it there means he is supreme lord brewmaster.  However only skimmed through it enough to take notes, and regurgitate what he can.

Then in that comment he said, "The chances of gram negative bacteria becoming an issue is nil" I had to chalk this guy up to as ignorant as he is arrogant.  As if to say acetic acid bacteria, Zymomonas spp., Pectinatus spp., and various Enterobacteriaceae have never spoiled a beer before.

When germinated, barley grains, by means of the enzyme amylase, then convert some of their constituent starch into sugar. This process is called malting... notice I did not say decoction there?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 11:43:20 AM by JJeffers09 »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2016, 03:20:50 PM »
What sparked this topic?
I was watching the you tube checking out homebrew videos. One of the topics in the video was mash temps and how they effect the finished product. I saw a lengthy and somewhat interesting comment.

" High temperature mashing does not induce body in beer and low temperatures do not create light bodied beer. It is an idea that home brewers have been led to believe, which is not true. Body is formed from complex starch called amylo-pectin. The starch is located at the tips of the kernel and it is heat resistant. The various temperatures used in the single infusion method are not high enough to cause complex starch to enter into solution. The starch enters into solution beginning at 76/77C. Decoction mashing releases the starch before enzymes become denatured. When mash is boiled the starch bursts and when the mash cools down it jells due to pectin. Dextrinization occurs at 65C. When dextrinization occurs, A and B limit dextrin forms. Limit dextrin is responsible for body. Limit dextrin is non-fermentable sugar which is tasteless. It is not to be confused with sweet tasting, non-fermentable sugar formed when Alpha liquefies simple starch called amylose. Body and sweetness are not to be confused. Again, it is something that home brewers have been led to believe because the method used by home brewers does nothing in regards to body. It is a story conceived by marketers.The single method is used by the IOB and EBC as a testing method. It was never a brewing method and it still isn't a brewing method, except in the world of home and craft brewing. Award winning home made beer was judged by BJCP judges who are under tutelage of Lord Charlie, the ruler of the home made beer kingdom. This is what took place when the beer was produced. When stabilizer was added, pH was reduce to a range below the optimum of the enzyme in action at 69F. Enzymatic action was negatively impacted. Since, there was no indication of a temperature (low temperature) being used which activates Beta, conversion did not occur. Conversion takes place when Beta converts simple sugar called glucose which is formed by Alpha during liquefaction of amylose (saccharification). Beta converts glucose into complex types of sugar called maltose and malto-trios. Perhaps, there is a reason for malt being called malt. Saccharification and conversion are not one and the same. When home brewers use the single method there is no reason for using a second fermentation vessel. During second fermentation another type of conversion takes place. Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest, is absorbed by yeast through the cell walls and glucose is expelled. The glucose becomes fuel during second fermentation and gravity decreases. During the aging cycle, yeast absorbs malto-triose and expels glucose and natural carbonation takes place. There is absolutely no reason that beer has to be primed or artificially carbonated when it is produced from a true brewing method"


There is a ton on nonesense in there, for example, "Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest...."  The stuff on amylopectin may be correct.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2016, 03:49:18 PM »

There is a ton on nonesense in there, for example, "Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest...."  The stuff on amylopectin may be correct.

No kidding. Some bizarrely incorrect information. I think my favorite is, "It is a story conceived by marketers." WTFLOL?

If this is the same guy on HBT then...wow. A beacon of misinformation.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2016, 03:56:12 PM »
There is a ton on nonesense in there, for example, "Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest...."  The stuff on amylopectin may be correct.

I agree.  It is way too much work to try to sort out the factual nuggets from nonsensical nuggets.

As for BJCP, they have their uses, to a point.  However I no longer worship any of the ground they/it cover like I once might have long ago.  To me it's almost hit a tipping point to the opposite of worship now.  The BJCP deserves much of the criticism they/it receives now.
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Offline Hand of Dom

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Re: decoction mashing / home brewing myths
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2016, 03:57:48 PM »

There is a ton on nonesense in there, for example, "Complex sugar, formed by Beta during the maltose rest...."  The stuff on amylopectin may be correct.

No kidding. Some bizarrely incorrect information. I think my favorite is, "It is a story conceived by marketers." WTFLOL?

If this is the same guy on HBT then...wow. A beacon of misinformation.

My favourite bit was fermenting at 55c.  I wouldn't even ferment a saison that hot.
Dom

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