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Author Topic: low oxygen trappist  (Read 5705 times)

Offline Philbrew

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 09:05:35 am »
Hey this is good news.  I have a Belgian Dubbel with 7% candi syrup scheduled to brew in January and a English ale with 10% invert syrup in February.
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline erockrph

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2016, 06:59:47 am »
That also has implications for us using invert syrup in our British Ales.

Maybe that's why I'm finding more beers "too clean".
What's your pitching rate look like? In my experience, lowering my pitching rate has had the biggest influence in getting more esters into standard gravity ales like hefeweizens and English ales. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed that my standard gravity Belgian ales (like Belgian pale ales, for example) have less yeast character than I'm expecting. I'm pretty sure it's because I don't lower my pitch rate for those ales the way I do for a hefe or bitter. Big Belgians and saisons can probably get away with a typical ale-sized pitch, since you have gravity and/or attenuation to push the ester production.
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Big Monk

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2016, 08:02:51 am »
That also has implications for us using invert syrup in our British Ales.

Maybe that's why I'm finding more beers "too clean".
What's your pitching rate look like? In my experience, lowering my pitching rate has had the biggest influence in getting more esters into standard gravity ales like hefeweizens and English ales. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed that my standard gravity Belgian ales (like Belgian pale ales, for example) have less yeast character than I'm expecting. I'm pretty sure it's because I don't lower my pitch rate for those ales the way I do for a hefe or bitter. Big Belgians and saisons can probably get away with a typical ale-sized pitch, since you have gravity and/or attenuation to push the ester production.

I was crunching the numbers given in BLAM for pitching rates of Duvel and Rochefort and it was scary low.

I think Duvel was 0.44 M/ml/°P and Rochefort pitched 0.73 M/ml/°P for all 3 beers.

Offline erockrph

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2016, 08:12:50 am »
That also has implications for us using invert syrup in our British Ales.

Maybe that's why I'm finding more beers "too clean".
What's your pitching rate look like? In my experience, lowering my pitching rate has had the biggest influence in getting more esters into standard gravity ales like hefeweizens and English ales. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed that my standard gravity Belgian ales (like Belgian pale ales, for example) have less yeast character than I'm expecting. I'm pretty sure it's because I don't lower my pitch rate for those ales the way I do for a hefe or bitter. Big Belgians and saisons can probably get away with a typical ale-sized pitch, since you have gravity and/or attenuation to push the ester production.

I was crunching the numbers given in BLAM for pitching rates of Duvel and Rochefort and it was scary low.

I think Duvel was 0.44 M/ml/°P and Rochefort pitched 0.73 M/ml/°P for all 3 beers.
Wow! I didn't realize that even the bigger Belgians got pitched at such a low rate. I generally brew Belgians in series, starting with a moderate gravity beer and working up to a Quad/BGSA. I've always pitched at a typical ale rate for my first beer, thinking I needed a big pitch for the big beers. I'm starting to think that it is more yeast health and acclimation to higher ABV that is what I need rather than sheer pitch size, and I can try pitching at my usual weissbier rate in the future.

Thanks for sharing that!
Eric B.

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Big Monk

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 08:18:16 am »
That also has implications for us using invert syrup in our British Ales.

Maybe that's why I'm finding more beers "too clean".
What's your pitching rate look like? In my experience, lowering my pitching rate has had the biggest influence in getting more esters into standard gravity ales like hefeweizens and English ales. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed that my standard gravity Belgian ales (like Belgian pale ales, for example) have less yeast character than I'm expecting. I'm pretty sure it's because I don't lower my pitch rate for those ales the way I do for a hefe or bitter. Big Belgians and saisons can probably get away with a typical ale-sized pitch, since you have gravity and/or attenuation to push the ester production.

I was crunching the numbers given in BLAM for pitching rates of Duvel and Rochefort and it was scary low.

I think Duvel was 0.44 M/ml/°P and Rochefort pitched 0.73 M/ml/°P for all 3 beers.
Wow! I didn't realize that even the bigger Belgians got pitched at such a low rate. I generally brew Belgians in series, starting with a moderate gravity beer and working up to a Quad/BGSA. I've always pitched at a typical ale rate for my first beer, thinking I needed a big pitch for the big beers. I'm starting to think that it is more yeast health and acclimation to higher ABV that is what I need rather than sheer pitch size, and I can try pitching at my usual weissbier rate in the future.

Thanks for sharing that!

No problem. I've read BLAM many times and I've always glossed over it but when I started to try and identify the "levers" to be pulled in perfecting that Monastic ester profile I crunched those.

So essentially the 6, 8 and 10 are identical in pitch rate and recipe composition, only they are scalar multiples so each gets a progressively larger dose of sugar.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2016, 09:53:09 am »
To get the right ester profile in a British ale, I don't make a starter, and don't use O2, just pump full throttle into the fermenter. When I pitched according to the yeast calculators with a starter, and aerated with O2, the beers were too clean.
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Offline narcout

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2016, 10:30:43 am »
I was crunching the numbers given in BLAM for pitching rates of Duvel and Rochefort and it was scary low.

I think Duvel was 0.44 M/ml/°P and Rochefort pitched 0.73 M/ml/°P for all 3 beers.

That doesn't seem that low given the "standard" pitching rate for ales is often stated as being 0.75 million cells per milliliter per degree Plato.  On on the other hand, they are pretty high gravity beers.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2016, 12:39:04 pm »


Color on photo not representative. Beers are lighter and clearer.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:44:55 pm by homoeccentricus »
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2016, 12:43:21 pm »
"Left is a bit clearer than right.
Smell of left is a bit stronger than right
Right has a bit more CO2 than left
Foam of right is a bit more stable than left
First sip of left is a bit thinner than right
Right tastes a bit more sharp than left
Bitterness is same
Overall quality is same"

Double blind comparison by my girlfriend.
One is Rochefort 6, the other is my Rochefort 4.
Frank P.

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2016, 03:51:52 pm »
Obviously the one to the left was my 4; more or less same amount of esters as the 6.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 04:52:56 pm »
That also has implications for us using invert syrup in our British Ales.

Maybe that's why I'm finding more beers "too clean".
What's your pitching rate look like? In my experience, lowering my pitching rate has had the biggest influence in getting more esters into standard gravity ales like hefeweizens and English ales. As a matter of fact, I've always noticed that my standard gravity Belgian ales (like Belgian pale ales, for example) have less yeast character than I'm expecting. I'm pretty sure it's because I don't lower my pitch rate for those ales the way I do for a hefe or bitter. Big Belgians and saisons can probably get away with a typical ale-sized pitch, since you have gravity and/or attenuation to push the ester production.

I was crunching the numbers given in BLAM for pitching rates of Duvel and Rochefort and it was scary low.

I think Duvel was 0.44 M/ml/°P and Rochefort pitched 0.73 M/ml/°P for all 3 beers.
Wow! I didn't realize that even the bigger Belgians got pitched at such a low rate. I'm starting to think that it is more yeast health and acclimation to higher ABV that is what I need rather than sheer pitch size


Yes. And keep in mind (as you stated) the viability and sheer health of their pitches that they are using. Super fresh, vital yeast cells.

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 05:13:40 pm »
Obviously the one to the left was my 4; more or less same amount of esters as the 6.

Admittedly, I Don't know much  about Belgians, but is this what you were shooting for?  Do you feel lownoxygen helped you? Have you made this normally before?

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2016, 03:39:24 am »
Obviously the one to the left was my 4; more or less same amount of esters as the 6.

Admittedly, I Don't know much  about Belgians, but is this what you were shooting for?  Do you feel lownoxygen helped you? Have you made this normally before?

I made this beer once before, about 6 months ago. The recipe was slightly different though, and I went from a mash pot wrapped in a sleeping bag to a Braumeister, so other factors have changed as well. The previous beer was good also, but this is better. But incrementally so. Maybe 10-15% better, if that means something. I'm not sure whether Belgian beers have an it-factor, but they can easily become phenolic soup if they are not top notch.  Don't know much about it-factors anyway. The only time I ever tasted a beer that may have had it was last year, a fresh Paeffgen Kolsch in Cologne.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Big Monk

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2016, 08:15:44 pm »
I have some ideas (not totally fleshed out yet) on where I want to go using Low Oxygen and brewing monastic beers.

The long and short of it will be attempting to use the increased flavor intensity of cara Malts in Low Oxygen methods to supplant dark syrups so I can use plain sugar.

Right now color will be the only obstacle to start with, to which Sinamar can be applied to make up the difference.


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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2016, 03:00:32 am »
This is cursing in the church, Big.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.