Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: low oxygen trappist  (Read 5710 times)

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2016, 08:51:24 am »
I have some ideas (not totally fleshed out yet) on where I want to go using Low Oxygen and brewing monastic beers.

The long and short of it will be attempting to use the increased flavor intensity of cara Malts in Low Oxygen methods to supplant dark syrups so I can use plain sugar.

Right now color will be the only obstacle to start with, to which Sinamar can be applied to make up the difference.
What is it that you are looking to get from Cara malts compared to darker Candi Syrups, and how does this apply to LODO?
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2016, 09:32:54 am »
What is it that you are looking to get from Cara malts compared to darker Candi Syrups, and how does this apply to LODO?


That was my question. Regardless of brewing method, I see good dark syrups as a prerequisite. Not a criticism, just curious.
Jon H.

Big Monk

  • Guest
low oxygen trappist
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2016, 10:59:58 am »
So the thought is this (disclaimer: no trials yet):

The malt flavor in the Low Oxygen brewing environment is intensified when it comes to cara Malts and roasted Malts. We've sort of been touching on this for a while now.

This is going to be very apparent with CaraMunich type Malts, Carabohemian, Special B/CaraAroma, etc. By selecting Malts that will give intense layers of dark caramel, dark fruit, toffee, raisin and dark chocolate flavors, my theory is that the characteristic flavors of dark syrups can be supplanted by the Cara blend/Sucrose combination.

Color can then come from a modest dose of Sinamar, due to the fact that the Low Oxygen color reduction and absence of color contribution from syrups means a max SRM in the low teens. No issues for pale beers but Dubbel and Dark Strong will need a bump.

Sugar will still make up a big portion of fermentables but I'm looking for the interesting flavors to come from the malt.

I've flagged the following ingredients for use in my trials based on the Weyermann Malt color wheels and our work with the base malt blending:

All Weyermann:

Pilsner
Pale Ale
(These will form a blend that combine for 5 EBC. These two together essentially for a custom EBC Pilsner malt like many big breweries specify)

CaraMunich II
CaraBohemian
CaraAroma
Sauermalz
Sinamar

Essentially the Table beer and Tripel will get the base malt blend, a touch of CMII to adjust color, a dose of plain sugar, and enough sauermalz to hit mash pH.

Darker beers will get the base malt blend, a mix of the 3 cara Malts, either table sugar or turbinado, enough sauermalz to hit mash pH and a touch of Sinamar to adjust color up.

That's the plan at least.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:06:07 am by Big Monk »

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2016, 11:05:02 am »
So the thought is this (disclaimer: no trials yet):

The malt flavor in the Low Oxygen brewing environment is intensified when it comes to cara Malts and roasted Malts. We've sort of been touching on this for a while now.

This is going to be very apparent with CaraMunich type Malts, Carabohemian, Special B/CaraAroma, etc. By selecting Malts that will give intense layers of dark caramel, dark fruit, toffee, raisin and dark chocolate flavors, my theory is that the characteristic flavors of dark syrups can be supplanted by the Cara blend/Sucrose combination.

Color can then come from a modest dose of Sinamar, due to the fact that the Low Oxygen color reduction and absence of color contribution from syrups means a mac SRM in the low teens. No issues for pale beers but Dubbel and Dark Strong will need a bump.

Sugar will still make up a big portion of fermentables but I'm looking for the interesting flavors to come from the malt.


I'm curious to see how it comes out. I'll admit I'm curious to see how Special B in particular comes out. If it intensifies the dark fruit/raisin thing (and I assume it would), that would be pretty interesting.
Jon H.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2016, 11:08:58 am »
So the thought is this (disclaimer: no trials yet):

The malt flavor in the Low Oxygen brewing environment is intensified when it comes to cara Malts and roasted Malts. We've sort of been touching on this for a while now.

This is going to be very apparent with CaraMunich type Malts, Carabohemian, Special B/CaraAroma, etc. By selecting Malts that will give intense layers of dark caramel, dark fruit, toffee, raisin and dark chocolate flavors, my theory is that the characteristic flavors of dark syrups can be supplanted by the Cara blend/Sucrose combination.

Color can then come from a modest dose of Sinamar, due to the fact that the Low Oxygen color reduction and absence of color contribution from syrups means a mac SRM in the low teens. No issues for pale beers but Dubbel and Dark Strong will need a bump.

Sugar will still make up a big portion of fermentables but I'm looking for the interesting flavors to come from the malt.


I'm curious to see how it comes out. I'll admit I'm curious to see how Special B in particular comes out. If it intensifies the dark fruit/raisin thing (and I assume it would), that would be pretty interesting.

It's just a hunch right now but one I have confidence in. I can't say for sure whether you replicate the real beers without syrup, but there is a good chance that an approximation may be achievable. And I think the reason will be the effect that Low Oxygen brings in intensifying the flavor of higher lovibond cara Malts.

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2016, 11:21:09 am »
It's just a hunch right now but one I have confidence in. I can't say for sure whether you replicate the real beers without syrup, but there is a good chance that an approximation may be achievable. And I think the reason will be the effect that Low Oxygen brings in intensifying the flavor of higher lovibond cara Malts.


By the same token, it seems that the character of the syrups could be intensified, too.
Jon H.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2016, 11:37:47 am »
It's just a hunch right now but one I have confidence in. I can't say for sure whether you replicate the real beers without syrup, but there is a good chance that an approximation may be achievable. And I think the reason will be the effect that Low Oxygen brings in intensifying the flavor of higher lovibond cara Malts.


By the same token, it seems that the character of the syrups could be intensified, too.

Malt is cheaper though!

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2016, 11:59:11 am »
So the thought is this (disclaimer: no trials yet):

The malt flavor in the Low Oxygen brewing environment is intensified when it comes to cara Malts and roasted Malts. We've sort of been touching on this for a while now.

This is going to be very apparent with CaraMunich type Malts, Carabohemian, Special B/CaraAroma, etc. By selecting Malts that will give intense layers of dark caramel, dark fruit, toffee, raisin and dark chocolate flavors, my theory is that the characteristic flavors of dark syrups can be supplanted by the Cara blend/Sucrose combination.

Color can then come from a modest dose of Sinamar, due to the fact that the Low Oxygen color reduction and absence of color contribution from syrups means a mac SRM in the low teens. No issues for pale beers but Dubbel and Dark Strong will need a bump.

Sugar will still make up a big portion of fermentables but I'm looking for the interesting flavors to come from the malt.


I'm curious to see how it comes out. I'll admit I'm curious to see how Special B in particular comes out. If it intensifies the dark fruit/raisin thing (and I assume it would), that would be pretty interesting.

I'm definitely interested as well, although I feel that there is a level of complexity that you get from using both Special B and dark Candi Syrup in tandem that I'm looking for in a Dubbel or BDSA. But it will be interesting to hear how LODO affects each of the ingredients individually. Keep us posted!
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2016, 01:24:24 pm »
Right it's just something I've theorized. At best, it will result in beers that are extremely complex that match the flavors on the monastic beers without the added expense of syrups.

At the very least it should produced a nice, complex beer that captures the spirit of the monastic beers a little better than some of the North American examples.

It's basically a win win!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2016, 01:35:51 pm »
I feel that there is a level of complexity that you get from using both Special B and dark Candi Syrup in tandem that I'm looking for in a Dubbel or BDSA.


Yeah, that's always been my approach too. I'm curious to see what Derek finds out.
Jon H.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2017, 10:23:09 pm »
I feel that there is a level of complexity that you get from using both Special B and dark Candi Syrup in tandem that I'm looking for in a Dubbel or BDSA.


Yeah, that's always been my approach too. I'm curious to see what Derek finds out.

Jon, my initial brews lead toward the path of using just sucrose and Turbinado along with a careful mix of flavorful grains.

For me at least, syrups are going to be a thing of the past.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1760
  • Southern Maryland
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2017, 06:35:23 pm »
But is a Trappist style ale without syrup?
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Big Monk

  • Guest
low oxygen trappist
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2017, 06:44:18 pm »
But is a Trappist style ale without syrup?

Of course it is. Sugar is mandatory for a number of reasons. I am finding that the flavors you get from dark syrups are available using Low Oxygen brewing methods when you select the right blend of dark cara Malts.

Dark syrup is not a prerequisite for these types of ales. Dark fruit flavors, rummy type flavors, raisin, fig, plum, date type flavors, etc. are. Those flavors are not isolated solely to dark syrups. Dark syrups happen to be the most direct route to those flavors. There is nothing wrong with that but I'm trying something different.

Hence the experimentation! Special B is wonderful using Low Oxygen. Carabohemian, CaraMunich II, CaraAroma, etc. Turbinado and Table sugar are what I have been using for my sugar contributions.

In the end it's the flavors that matter not the ingredients. Not for nothing but grain, plain sugar and Turbinado are much cheaper than syrups!

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1760
  • Southern Maryland
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2017, 06:47:06 pm »
Gotcha, I missed the use of other sugars.

A co-worker makes his own syrups from turbinado, his Belgians are the best I've had this side of the real thing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 06:49:28 pm by Phil_M »
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: low oxygen trappist
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2017, 06:54:16 pm »
Gotcha, I missed the use of other sugars.

A co-worker makes his own syrups from turbinado, his Belgians are the best I've had this side of the real thing.

My last Dubbel used a blend of CaraHell, CaraBohemian and Special B, along with 12% Turbinado. It was a bit light in color. I will be adding small amounts (1% or less) of Carafa II and bumping up the darker caras to get the color right.

The batch is gone already after less than a month (12 bottles total) if that's any indication of how it tasted!