Author Topic: Starch Convertion  (Read 1516 times)

Offline Int3lig3ntdzign

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Starch Convertion
« on: January 17, 2017, 05:09:47 PM »
Hey All,

    Quick question, all though it may not be a quick answer, I have seen Dennys recipe for the Wee Shoormy in Stans Brewing local and have been setting it aside to brew once I find the correct mushrooms. Which in New England is apparently hard to find in January haha, so I'm setting the brew out till the spring. Either way I've just gotten into Iodine mash tests and realized that I'm converting my starches completely in half the time that I usually mash for. Back to the shrooms, the recipe calls for a 90 min mash. I was wondering what the upside of continuing the mash for about an hour after my starch has converted? Not that I think it's wrong, obviously it's done for a reason, just wanted to know more about the science behind it. Thanks guys!

-Keith

Offline Peculiar Thomas

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 05:27:30 PM »
I can think of two reasons to extend the mash. First would be if doing a lower temperature mash, to allow more time for enzymatic action to break less fermentable sugars down into more fermentable ones. Second would be to improve solubility of the sugars to improve extract efficiency. A 90 minute mash does seem a little long to me for either of those purposes. I don't have my copy of the book on hand so couldn't say what else it may help with in this case. Are the mushrooms added to the mash or the boil?

Offline denny

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 05:46:35 PM »
I can think of two reasons to extend the mash. First would be if doing a lower temperature mash, to allow more time for enzymatic action to break less fermentable sugars down into more fermentable ones. Second would be to improve solubility of the sugars to improve extract efficiency. A 90 minute mash does seem a little long to me for either of those purposes. I don't have my copy of the book on hand so couldn't say what else it may help with in this case. Are the mushrooms added to the mash or the boil?

yes to more fermentability, although there are questions about that.  No to more solubility...the mushrooms go in secondary, not mash or boil.
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Offline Int3lig3ntdzign

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 05:50:29 PM »
They are frozen and used as a "dry hop" addition for a couple of weeks in secondary fermentation. My system runs at an average of 80% efficiency even when I cut my mash time down. I blame that on my RIMS system. Do you think it's fine to cut the 90 mins down too? 

Offline Peculiar Thomas

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 06:03:08 PM »
I can think of two reasons to extend the mash. First would be if doing a lower temperature mash, to allow more time for enzymatic action to break less fermentable sugars down into more fermentable ones. Second would be to improve solubility of the sugars to improve extract efficiency. A 90 minute mash does seem a little long to me for either of those purposes. I don't have my copy of the book on hand so couldn't say what else it may help with in this case. Are the mushrooms added to the mash or the boil?

yes to more fermentability, although there are questions about that.  No to more solubility...the mushrooms go in secondary, not mash or boil.

I thought I had heard of another benefit in addition to the (debatable) effect on fermentability. If not solubility, is there any other benefit? Regardless, not sure I understand what the purpose of a 90 minute mash is over a more typical 60 minute one, like the OP, just trying to understand the choice in the recipe formulation.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
"3.2.1.3.2
Effect of mashing time on starch degradation
The enzymes certainly do not work uniformly
throughout mashing. Instead two time-dependent
stages in enzyme activity can be distinguished
amylase activity dependent on mash temperature and rest
duration

1. The maximum enzyme activity is reached
after 10-20 min. The maximum enzyme
activity is greater at temperatures between
62 - 63 °C than at 65 -66 °c.
2. After 40-60 min enzyme activity at first decreases
rapidly, but the reduction in activity
continuously decreases.
From this it must be concluded that the effect
of the mashing temperature must always be
considered in relation to the duration of mashing.
In general:
1. With increasing mashing time the concentration
of the extract solution increases. But
the rate of increase becomes slower and
slower.
2. With increasing mashing time (especially
when mashing at 62 -63 °C) the maltose
content increases and with it the attenuation
limit. These worts should produce a
vigorous main fermentation."

Offline denny

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 06:54:55 PM »
I've been playing with a 20 min. mash lately, usually around 153F.  So far, despite the literature, I have found no real differences from a longer mash.  And being an advocate of long mash times, I'm kinda stunned.
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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 07:53:05 PM »
I've been playing with a 20 min. mash lately, usually around 153F.  So far, despite the literature, I have found no real differences from a longer mash.  And being an advocate of long mash times, I'm kinda stunned.

You'll often see a 25-30 min β rest quoted in the 62/72/77 °C Hockhurz.

Offline stpug

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 07:56:14 PM »
I've been playing with a 20 min. mash lately, usually around 153F.  So far, despite the literature, I have found no real differences from a longer mash.  And being an advocate of long mash times, I'm kinda stunned.

You'll often see a 25-30 min β rest quoted in the 62/72/77 °C Hockhurz.

Denny seems to suggest 20 minutes total
Hockhurz would be about 25+25+10 for 60 minutes total (or more)

I don't see how this comparison relates to Denny's post. Am I missing the point? (this wouldn't be the first time I've done that - or last :D)

Offline denny

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2017, 08:01:12 PM »
Denny seems to suggest 20 minutes total
Hockhurz would be about 25+25+10 for 60 minutes total (or more)

I don't see how this comparison relates to Denny's post. Am I missing the point? (this wouldn't be the first time I've done that - or last :D)

Yes, 20 min. total at 153F.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Big Monk

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 08:05:51 PM »
I've been playing with a 20 min. mash lately, usually around 153F.  So far, despite the literature, I have found no real differences from a longer mash.  And being an advocate of long mash times, I'm kinda stunned.

You'll often see a 25-30 min β rest quoted in the 62/72/77 °C Hockhurz.

Denny seems to suggest 20 minutes total
Hockhurz would be about 25+25+10 for 60 minutes total (or more)

I don't see how this comparison relates to Denny's post. Am I missing the point? (this wouldn't be the first time I've done that - or last :D)

No definitely not missing the point. I was just saying that in a 62/72/77 ish °C Hockhurz, he mash times would be 25/30/10 min respectively and you can see by the β rest length that if 100% conversion is obtained, you don't need all that much time to obtain a fermentable wort.

Now there are obviously other benefits gained from the 72/77 °C rests, but speaking purely of fermentable wort, I can see the shorter rest.

Offline denny

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 08:32:04 PM »
Now there are obviously other benefits gained from the 72/77 °C rests, but speaking purely of fermentable wort, I can see the shorter rest.

What are those benefits in your opinion?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 08:37:27 PM »
Body and foam. Most specifically.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 08:43:40 PM »
Take for example my kellerbier ( basically a helles) with 99% pilsner and 1% caramunich II














Does your 20 minute mash beer do that? Did it finish at 1.008, and have the appropriate body and head retention with no dextrine malts? I don't think a single infusion, pils only, low hopped beer is going to do this. But I could be wrong. Standard 20/30/10 mash here.

My point was actually in favor of your short mashing, even outside of the optimal beta temp, beta activity will peak at 20 minutes then quickly fall off.
For instance for me to hit 1.008-9 on an all malt beer all I need is roughly 25 minutes at 62c, but for my pilsners to get to 1.006 I need 60 minutes.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 08:53:10 PM by The Beerery »

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Starch Convertion
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 08:55:42 PM »
George Fix says " formation of glycoproteins leading to stability and texture qualities of beer foam" .
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