Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe  (Read 9086 times)

Offline MerlinWerks

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 40
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2017, 11:08:15 am »
Looking for opinions on handling the roast barley step on a re-circulating eBiab system. The original recipe adds the roasted barley at the end of the mash so it would actually be in contact with the existing wort for the duration of the sparge.

Since there is no sparge in biab how long before the end of the mash would you add the roasted barley, 20-30 minutes?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 11:25:46 am by MerlinWerks »

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7788
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2017, 10:14:38 pm »
Looking for opinions on handling the roast barley step on a re-circulating eBiab system. The original recipe adds the roasted barley at the end of the mash so it would actually be in contact with the existing wort for the duration of the sparge.

Since there is no sparge in biab how long before the end of the mash would you add the roasted barley, 20-30 minutes?
I no sparge, and I add them in the last 10 minutes of the mash. That seems to be plenty long enough.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline MerlinWerks

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 40
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2017, 06:15:58 am »
Thanks Eric!

Offline deadpoetic0077

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Noobie
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 07:07:18 am »
When I put Martins recipe in brewers friend, it comes out to be like 22 SRM. Recipe says it should be in the 30s. Any ideas on what im doing wrong?

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Sweet Stout
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.037
Efficiency: 74% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 5.09%
IBU (tinseth): 36.51
SRM (morey): 24.78

FERMENTABLES:
5.17 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (74.6%)
1.1 lb - Flaked Barley (15.9%)
10.6 oz - American - Roasted Barley (9.6%)

HOPS:
1 oz - East Kent Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5, Use: Boil for 90 min, IBU: 32.71
0.25 oz - East Kent Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 3.79

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 148 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4.3 gal

YEAST:
White Labs - Irish Ale Yeast WLP004
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 71.5%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 68 F
Fermentation Temp: 67 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

Offline stpug

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2017, 07:52:27 am »
When I put Martins recipe in brewers friend, it comes out to be like 22 SRM. Recipe says it should be in the 30s. Any ideas on what im doing wrong?

EDIT: Ignore my post below - I hadn't yet installed my brain for the day :D

Back in 2011 (a couple years before the article), mabrungard stated that he was using the Rager calculations for IBU estimation.  Try switching to that calculation and see what it does for the IBU estimation.  I generally find that Rager will increase the IBU estimation - sometimes only 1-2 IBUs but sometimes it's much more significant like 8 IBUs or more.

source: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6610.msg79464#msg79464
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:29:09 am by stpug »

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 07:55:17 am »
I think he's asking about the color (SRM) discrepancy. I wonder if he entered his batch size into software. That recipe is darker than 22 SRM.
Jon H.

Offline stpug

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 08:28:14 am »
I think he's asking about the color (SRM) discrepancy. I wonder if he entered his batch size into software. That recipe is darker than 22 SRM.

Oh crap, you're right.  Nevermind my last post; hadn't had my morning coffee yet :D

Offline stpug

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 08:36:49 am »
When I put Martins recipe in brewers friend, it comes out to be like 22 SRM. Recipe says it should be in the 30s. Any ideas on what im doing wrong?

FERMENTABLES:
5.17 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (74.6%)
1.1 lb - Flaked Barley (15.9%)
10.6 oz - American - Roasted Barley (9.6%)

With head firmly screwed on this time: :D

Proportions look good; OG a little high but no worries.  As for the color discrepancy, it may simply be the malt choice you're using for the roasted barley.  For instance, Briess/American roasted barley comes in around 300°L (or ~400 SRM); whereas, Crisp/UK roasted barley comes in around 555°L (or ~751 SRM).  My instinct would be to use UK roasted barley for a classic Irish Dry Stout due to the geographic proximity of Ireland to Great Britain.  I bet if you substituted in Crisp roasted barleys in your brewing software you'll see that final SRM beer color discrepancy go away (or be greatly reduced).

Offline HoosierBrew

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 13031
  • Indianapolis,IN
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2017, 08:50:20 am »
When I put Martins recipe in brewers friend, it comes out to be like 22 SRM. Recipe says it should be in the 30s. Any ideas on what im doing wrong?

FERMENTABLES:
5.17 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (74.6%)
1.1 lb - Flaked Barley (15.9%)
10.6 oz - American - Roasted Barley (9.6%)

With head firmly screwed on this time: :D

Proportions look good; OG a little high but no worries.  As for the color discrepancy, it may simply be the malt choice you're using for the roasted barley.  For instance, Briess/American roasted barley comes in around 300°L (or ~400 SRM); whereas, Crisp/UK roasted barley comes in around 555°L (or ~751 SRM).  My instinct would be to use UK roasted barley for a classic Irish Dry Stout due to the geographic proximity of Ireland to Great Britain.  I bet if you substituted in Crisp roasted barleys in your brewing software you'll see that final SRM beer color discrepancy go away (or be greatly reduced).


Sounds right to me. I generally use a UK roasted barley for my stouts.
Jon H.

Offline deadpoetic0077

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Noobie
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2017, 09:14:47 am »
When I put Martins recipe in brewers friend, it comes out to be like 22 SRM. Recipe says it should be in the 30s. Any ideas on what im doing wrong?

FERMENTABLES:
5.17 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (74.6%)
1.1 lb - Flaked Barley (15.9%)
10.6 oz - American - Roasted Barley (9.6%)

With head firmly screwed on this time: :D

Proportions look good; OG a little high but no worries.  As for the color discrepancy, it may simply be the malt choice you're using for the roasted barley.  For instance, Briess/American roasted barley comes in around 300°L (or ~400 SRM); whereas, Crisp/UK roasted barley comes in around 555°L (or ~751 SRM).  My instinct would be to use UK roasted barley for a classic Irish Dry Stout due to the geographic proximity of Ireland to Great Britain.  I bet if you substituted in Crisp roasted barleys in your brewing software you'll see that final SRM beer color discrepancy go away (or be greatly reduced).


Sounds right to me. I generally use a UK roasted barley for my stouts.

yea I put the OG a little higher on purpose.

Batch size is also correct in the software.

when I switch from American to UK, the color DEFINATELY gets to 36 :P Thanks for the help all!


One other question is that im doing this BIAB with a sparge thru a strainer. Im thinking of adding the roasted in the last 15 mins of the mash since the recipe says add at he end of mash (which seems to me like that would be steeped in with the grains during the sparge. Think 15 mins is enough time? Whats the purpose of that? is it to just not get as many tannins out of the roasted barley?

Offline stpug

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2017, 09:27:16 am »
One other question is that im doing this BIAB with a sparge thru a strainer. Im thinking of adding the roasted in the last 15 mins of the mash since the recipe says add at he end of mash (which seems to me like that would be steeped in with the grains during the sparge. Think 15 mins is enough time? Whats the purpose of that? is it to just not get as many tannins out of the roasted barley?

Usually when methods describe adding roasted malts "at the end of the mash", "during vorlauf", "just before lautering", "cold steeped", etc, then the goal is to minimize the possibility of detrimental/negative/harsh qualities coming from those malts.  There are a few ways you could approach this to achieve a similar end goal (pH management, cold steeping, late roast additions, O2 restricting, etc), but in the case of this recipe I would probably just follow the process as Martin lays it out with whatever changes you have to use due to equipment/process differences.  In the case of a pourover sparge of the bag of grains, I would add the roasted malts only about 5 minutes before pulling the bag (ensuring good mixing into the mash) to give a short soak in the entire mash.  After that, proceed with your pourover sparge of the grainbag as you had planned.  There's nothing magic about the 5 minute mark, but that's the amount of time I think it would take to get pretty good extraction from the grain without giving so much time as to get any negative qualities (this is very subjective of course and just how I would approach it if I was using your same brewing method). I'd also be cautious to use sparge water that's not too hot (<170°F) so as not to encourage tannin extraction.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:30:36 am by stpug »

Offline deadpoetic0077

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Noobie
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2017, 10:22:08 am »
One other question is that im doing this BIAB with a sparge thru a strainer. Im thinking of adding the roasted in the last 15 mins of the mash since the recipe says add at he end of mash (which seems to me like that would be steeped in with the grains during the sparge. Think 15 mins is enough time? Whats the purpose of that? is it to just not get as many tannins out of the roasted barley?

Usually when methods describe adding roasted malts "at the end of the mash", "during vorlauf", "just before lautering", "cold steeped", etc, then the goal is to minimize the possibility of detrimental/negative/harsh qualities coming from those malts.  There are a few ways you could approach this to achieve a similar end goal (pH management, cold steeping, late roast additions, O2 restricting, etc), but in the case of this recipe I would probably just follow the process as Martin lays it out with whatever changes you have to use due to equipment/process differences.  In the case of a pourover sparge of the bag of grains, I would add the roasted malts only about 5 minutes before pulling the bag (ensuring good mixing into the mash) to give a short soak in the entire mash.  After that, proceed with your pourover sparge of the grainbag as you had planned.  There's nothing magic about the 5 minute mark, but that's the amount of time I think it would take to get pretty good extraction from the grain without giving so much time as to get any negative qualities (this is very subjective of course and just how I would approach it if I was using your same brewing method). I'd also be cautious to use sparge water that's not too hot (<170°F) so as not to encourage tannin extraction.

OK that sounds great! Do you really think 5 mins is enough to get those flavors and color into the beer? I mean my sparge process is quite short since im just pouring hot water over the grains thru a strainer to rinse some residual sugars off. I leave the bag sitting on top of the kettle so it can drip and I can squeeze it so I mean there will be some residuals over time but mostly it will be in contact with sparge water for like... 30 seconds.

Offline stpug

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2017, 12:43:04 pm »
One other question is that im doing this BIAB with a sparge thru a strainer. Im thinking of adding the roasted in the last 15 mins of the mash since the recipe says add at he end of mash (which seems to me like that would be steeped in with the grains during the sparge. Think 15 mins is enough time? Whats the purpose of that? is it to just not get as many tannins out of the roasted barley?

Usually when methods describe adding roasted malts "at the end of the mash", "during vorlauf", "just before lautering", "cold steeped", etc, then the goal is to minimize the possibility of detrimental/negative/harsh qualities coming from those malts.  There are a few ways you could approach this to achieve a similar end goal (pH management, cold steeping, late roast additions, O2 restricting, etc), but in the case of this recipe I would probably just follow the process as Martin lays it out with whatever changes you have to use due to equipment/process differences.  In the case of a pourover sparge of the bag of grains, I would add the roasted malts only about 5 minutes before pulling the bag (ensuring good mixing into the mash) to give a short soak in the entire mash.  After that, proceed with your pourover sparge of the grainbag as you had planned.  There's nothing magic about the 5 minute mark, but that's the amount of time I think it would take to get pretty good extraction from the grain without giving so much time as to get any negative qualities (this is very subjective of course and just how I would approach it if I was using your same brewing method). I'd also be cautious to use sparge water that's not too hot (<170°F) so as not to encourage tannin extraction.

OK that sounds great! Do you really think 5 mins is enough to get those flavors and color into the beer? I mean my sparge process is quite short since im just pouring hot water over the grains thru a strainer to rinse some residual sugars off. I leave the bag sitting on top of the kettle so it can drip and I can squeeze it so I mean there will be some residuals over time but mostly it will be in contact with sparge water for like... 30 seconds.

I don't have a definitive answer for you, sorry.  If you're concerned it won't be enough time then you can split the difference (10 minutes), or just go with your gut instinct (15 minutes).  If I were in your shoes I would go with my instinct, and re-read my tasting notes from previous dark beer batches I'd brewed to help guide me.

Maybe someone who has done a dry Irish stout using a late roasted malt mashing method will chime in with more guidance.  Overall, I think roasted malts are pretty flexible as long as your pH is reasonable.  Anytime I do dark roasted beers I mash those malts for the full duration; the only time I do late additions to the mash is when I'm going for color while minimizing the roast character.

Offline deadpoetic0077

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Noobie
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2017, 09:44:27 am »
I ended up going with blackprinz instead of roasted malt. Since its debittered I just used it from the start of the mash. Sample I pulled was super tasty! I ended up being off on my OG and volume calculations. Guess it wont be a dry stout, but rather a regular stout :P Beer is beer I guess. First time using beersmith so I guess I need to look at some of the instructions again!

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7788
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Looking for a good Dry Stout recipe
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2017, 01:17:30 pm »
Here's what I'm thinking. I'm hoping to brew this on Tuesday. I added a touch of pale chocolate and dark crystal, since I get some of those flavors out of Murphy's and that's what I'm shooting for. I'm looking forward to this one.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Patrick Fitzmichael Stout

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Irish Stout
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.029
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.039
Final Gravity: 1.009
ABV (standard): 3.93%
IBU (tinseth): 30.6
SRM (morey): 31.35

FERMENTABLES:
3 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (75%)
2 oz - United Kingdom - Dark Crystal 80L (3.1%)
6 oz - Flaked Barley (9.4%)
6 oz - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (9.4%)
2 oz - United Kingdom - Pale Chocolate (3.1%)

HOPS:
0.8 oz - East Kent Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 30.6
0.5 oz - East Kent Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5, Use: Boil for 0 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 148 F, Time: 75 min, Amount: 17 qt, Sacc Rest

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04

Water Notes:
Add 2g of CaCl2 to target ~55ppm Calcium
Add 1.8mL of lactic acid to mash to target mash pH of 5.4

NOTES:
Add roast barley and chocolate malt in last 10 minutes of mash

I finally tapped this last night, and it is really nice so far. I'm really glad I brewed this one. I think I want to cut the pale chocolate to 1 oz next time, since I got a surprising amount of chocolate flavor with this small addition.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer