Author Topic: Boil temps - do they matter?  (Read 15114 times)

Offline stpug

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.

I do still use the lid.  I do still boil completely under the lid. I get about 6-7% boiloff. I do remove the lid for the chilling whirlpool, and don't replace it under the wort is under 100F. DMS is a concern. I have found I can pick it up in the wort very easily and its about gone with 10-15 minutes left in the boil ( 60 minutes). If you don't pick it up in boil, I would bet its coming from the chilling/whirlpool portion. 10% and below is something I shoot for.

Thanks for your response, coupled with the reply to martin, I'll aim for an 8% evap rate on my next batch and see how it goes.  One more question, if you don't mind: The lid you're using doesn't vent the steam somehow does it? (like having a vent/vacuum port on the lid that's sucking out steam throughout the entire boil)

The Beerery

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2017, 08:40:32 PM »
Bryan, are you still using a covered pot during the boil (i.e. the video on your facebook shows a lid that has a pie-shaped sliding piece that you can view into the boiling wort)?  And, if so, do you keep the wort covered for the entire boil?  I'm wondering about the potential for that to lead to DMS/SMM retention in the wort.  I ask because for a couple batches last year I attempted a similar, covered-boil and the results were not great (not terrible, but certainly not an improvement from my process at the time).  I've quickly moved back to open pot with reduced vigor, generally exceeding 10% evap by a small amount, and have liked the results pretty well.  I'm looking to revisit a lower-evap, lower-vigor, lower-stress boil but would want to avoid the "not great" results of last year.  Cheers!

Edit: I should mention that the "not great" results from last years couple batches very much seemed DMS-related. My impression what a slight cooked vegetable character. I'm not sure other folks picked up on it, but I certainly noticed it.  It's entirely possible that I misdiagnosed my beers and it was just a recipe formation issue on my part.

I do still use the lid.  I do still boil completely under the lid. I get about 6-7% boiloff. I do remove the lid for the chilling whirlpool, and don't replace it under the wort is under 100F. DMS is a concern. I have found I can pick it up in the wort very easily and its about gone with 10-15 minutes left in the boil ( 60 minutes). If you don't pick it up in boil, I would bet its coming from the chilling/whirlpool portion. 10% and below is something I shoot for.

Thanks for your response, coupled with the reply to martin, I'll aim for an 8% evap rate on my next batch and see how it goes.  One more question, if you don't mind: The lid you're using doesn't vent the steam somehow does it? (like having a vent/vacuum port on the lid that's sucking out steam throughout the entire boil)

No it does not, and I see where you are going. ;)
I did not notice any issues with "drip back" or condensation, but again YMMV, FWIW, IMO, ETC.  8)


Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2017, 09:49:19 PM »
I'm not sure if the pre and post boil color comparison is truly valid since there is a significant increase of wort solids and sugars. That would increase color by itself. But I do agree that the heating intensity should increase the darkening. We just need a better test and result in order to make the comparison.

5 to 6% is teeny compared to typical homebrewing results. I've heard that keeping it below 8% is recommended on pro systems. We are probably 2 or 3 times that. The common lore to keep the kettle uncovered is a big reason why our loss rates are too high. I keep my lid about 2/3 on and I still have too much loss. My wort is only slightly rolling, so it looks like I need to cover up a little more.

I've learned new stuff in this thread!

I had the same thought about concentration.  Glad to see I'm not a dolt.

I guess I've been lucky with stove top brewing in that it's pretty hard to make the boil jump with a typical burner.  I still get more then 10% boil-off, though, even with a partially covered pot.

When I'm brewing outdoors, it's much harder to manage the boil.  Or, more accurately, it takes more monitoring and adjustment.
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Offline stpug

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2017, 10:06:51 PM »
No it does not, and I see where you are going. ;)
I did not notice any issues with "drip back" or condensation, but again YMMV, FWIW, IMO, ETC.  8)

Thanks again for sharing.  I just wanted to make sure that a plain and simple pot lid wasn't an oversight only to find out later that you in fact vented the steam generated during the boil. I (somewhat reluctantly) look forward to taking another stab at a mostly covered boil.  Now I have some recipe and process modifications to make with the new reduced evap rate I'll be shooting for.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2017, 11:36:04 PM »
I was off the forum for about a week and was wondering what had happened in the other threads, but now I see.  Glad this thread is back on topic.  I have gone to a gentler boil with the lid on 3/4 or more, but not from anything stated in this thread - I just wanted more wort, so I end up with more beer to fill the cornies up fully when it is done.  My boil off rate had been just too high (like 12 -15%).  So occasionally one stumbles onto a process that helps in more than one way...by the way, I do occasionally remove the lid during the boil to let off some steam and drip off some condensate (DMS worries plague me regardless - old habit...) and I leave the lid off of the kettle during the chill down as my brew guru said failing to do that is almost a sure way for DMS to form in the few minutes of chilling.  Could be true and I don't want to risk a batch to find that one out.
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The Beerery

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2017, 12:11:53 AM »
No problem.  I found best malz to have the most DMS of the continental pilsners.


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Offline narcout

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2017, 01:39:03 AM »
I'm confused about the point of the partially covered boil.  It reduces evaporation loss, but it doesn't reduce heat stress does it (the liquid is still being boiled off, you're just recovering some of it)? 
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The Beerery

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2017, 01:40:38 AM »
Well in my case, because I cover the pot it allows me to lower the power of the boiling element to help with heat stress AND evaporation. 


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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2017, 03:05:59 AM »
It should reduce the amount of energy you're using, electric or gas, as you're not losing as much heat.

Whether that helps with heat stress, I have no idea.

I assume it reduces boil off, but I haven't done any actual testing to be sure.  It must, right?  Right?
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline natebrews

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2017, 03:10:23 AM »
There was a brulosophy experiment on boiling with a lid on or off.  They found the same boil off rate with it on or off (there is a picture of the post boil pot volumes for the two), though they did get a small gravity difference between the two.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/31/the-boil-lid-on-vs-lid-off-exbeeriment-results/

I didn't see it on the page, but I thought on one of the podcasts they were on with respect to this experiment, they said that they had it lab tested and got the same DMS readings for both, zero.  But like I said, I didn't see it on the writeup.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 03:14:41 AM by natebrews »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2017, 04:39:20 AM »
There was a brulosophy experiment on boiling with a lid on or off.  They found the same boil off rate with it on or off (there is a picture of the post boil pot volumes for the two), though they did get a small gravity difference between the two.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/31/the-boil-lid-on-vs-lid-off-exbeeriment-results/

I didn't see it on the page, but I thought on one of the podcasts they were on with respect to this experiment, they said that they had it lab tested and got the same DMS readings for both, zero.  But like I said, I didn't see it on the writeup.
This doesn't surprise me. I think DMS is a much smaller issue than it has been made out to be. I do long, covered hop stands at anywhere from 190F down to 120F and never detected DMS. I think there is likely a limited number of base malts where DMS may be a concern, but I think in general the risk is overblown.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2017, 04:23:46 PM »
I think that was Basic Brewing Radio back in December. Going from memory only, it was a berlinerweiss, no one, or not enough, detected DMS, but the lab found low levels in both.

The Beerery

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2017, 04:28:15 PM »
I was able to repeatably get DMS when trying to dial in my boil stuff one way or another. I know it stopped with an upped boil off, and a lid removal at flame out. Some was real bad and even effect heat retention.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2017, 04:40:02 PM »
When I was thinking about trying out the short boil for pils malt I recall reading Kai suggesting a covered simmer finished with a short uncovered full boil. I've not tried it but it gave me courage to try the 60 min boil.

Honestly, I think it takes some effort to get DMS in a final beer.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Boil temps - do they matter?
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2017, 04:46:36 PM »
When I was thinking about trying out the short boil for pils malt I recall reading Kai suggesting a covered simmer finished with a short uncovered full boil. I've not tried it but it gave me courage to try the 60 min boil.

Honestly, I think it takes some effort to get DMS in a final beer.


Jim, FWIW I brew 60 mins with pils malt all the time. Zero issues.

Edit - Misread. I thought the 'courage to try' part meant the 60 min boil, not the covered simmer. My bad.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 04:51:56 PM by HoosierBrew »
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