Author Topic: BIAB no spargers  (Read 1418 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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BIAB no spargers
« on: January 23, 2017, 12:23:48 AM »
Anyone doing no sparge BIAB? Probably...

Curious about input on predictable efficiency drop from batch sparging normal mashing. Maybe I could gather an average if a few of you with experience. So I'm not so much looking for anyone to repeat what they've read or heard.

The interest comes from looking at that Whirlpool Vessi and contemplating a one pot wort making brewery some day in the future. I've also contemplated going to 12 gallon batches in a 20 gallon pot, split to two fermenters, rather than brewing two 6 gallon batches. I don't want to buy two new 20 gallon pots though, but if I could do a one pot brewery I might.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 12:32:07 AM »
I don't biab but I do full volume no sparge mashes(so basically the same thing).  I am 100% conversion, 90% mash, 84% brewhouse.


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 12:34:37 AM »
Good point... I'm talking brew house %

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2017, 12:36:32 AM »
I don't biab but I do full volume no sparge mashes(so basically the same thing).  I am 100% conversion, 90% mash, 84% brewhouse.


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Have you always done this? Or what was the difference when you sparged

Offline The Beerery

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2017, 12:44:27 AM »
 No I have tried every method. When I was sparging I was low to mid 90's brewhouse. But I thought the beers were thin.


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Offline brewinhard

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2017, 12:50:01 AM »
Jim,

I have been no-sparging for a good handful of years. Mind you, I do not utilize constant recirculation which can greatly improve efficiency. I use a classic, single-infusion mash rest in a large cooler. I typically hit between 60 and 70% efficiency based on grain bill for moderate gravity beers. With really big beers (think 1.100+) I only achieve about 40-50% efficiency.

I have always preferred the quality of wort from this process even if it does utilize a bit more base malt to get there. But the cost is minimal on our scale.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2017, 12:54:46 AM »
By the way, scratch the 12 gallon batch bs, duh the water alone would fill a 20 gallon pot. 30 gallon pot maybe

Offline brewinhard

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 12:56:40 AM »
By the way, scratch the 12 gallon batch bs, duh the water alone would fill a 20 gallon pot. 30 gallon pot maybe

Yeah, when you start going full-on no-sparge, you really need a lot more space to reach your full kettle volume.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 01:31:39 AM »
Jim,

I have been no-sparging for a good handful of years. Mind you, I do not utilize constant recirculation which can greatly improve efficiency. I use a classic, single-infusion mash rest in a large cooler. I typically hit between 60 and 70% efficiency based on grain bill for moderate gravity beers. With really big beers (think 1.100+) I only achieve about 40-50% efficiency.

I have always preferred the quality of wort from this process even if it does utilize a bit more base malt to get there. But the cost is minimal on our scale.
This is about what I was expecting. I get about 75% currently and was thinking I'd drop to 65-70%. I never brew above 1.080 so that's not a worry for me. And I really don't care about an extra pound per brew. I'd like to come close to my targets the first go around though.

Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 03:49:17 AM »
My mash calculator is perfect for this, and as far as I know, it's the only software available right now that will predict efficiency changes based on a change of process and grain bill.

Edit: Should probably provide a link... https://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

Here's how I would go about doing this.

  • Set a dataset for a typical brew of 1.055-1.060, using your biab batch sparge process, noting the mash thickness and sparge volume entry fields. Adjust the conversion efficiency until the brewhouse efficiency matches your typical brewhouse, note that it will most likely be between 88-95%. You may also need to lower sparge coefficient slightly, as 100% corresponds to a perfect single step batch sparge process. A less homogenous batch sparge may be lower than 100%, and a really good fly sparge may be higher.
  • Change the mash thickness and/or sparge volume to zero to indicate a no sparge process. Note the new brewhouse efficiency. Typically the same recipe fora  1.055-1.060 beer will change about ~8% from a perfect batch sparge to a good no sparge.

It's that easy.

Example below. Paste the text string into the "Saved Data" cell, and click import Data. The variables should then change and automatically recalculate.

Below is a typical brew day for me.

Code: [Select]
5.5,12,0,0,60,154,72,168,0,0.08,0,1.2,9.901,13.898,0,0,0,95,grams,1.75
Then if I were to brew a no sparge version of the same recipe I would expect

Code: [Select]
5.5,12,0,0,60,154,72,168,0,0.08,0,1.2,9.901,13.898,0,0,0,95,grams,0
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 03:51:29 AM by Pricelessbrewing »

Big Monk

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BIAB no spargers
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2017, 12:18:49 PM »
Jim,

I have been no-sparging for a good handful of years. Mind you, I do not utilize constant recirculation which can greatly improve efficiency. I use a classic, single-infusion mash rest in a large cooler. I typically hit between 60 and 70% efficiency based on grain bill for moderate gravity beers. With really big beers (think 1.100+) I only achieve about 40-50% efficiency.

I have always preferred the quality of wort from this process even if it does utilize a bit more base malt to get there. But the cost is minimal on our scale.
This is about what I was expecting. I get about 75% currently and was thinking I'd drop to 65-70%. I never brew above 1.080 so that's not a worry for me. And I really don't care about an extra pound per brew. I'd like to come close to my targets the first go around though.

100% conversion η, coupled with no/Low MLT deadspace losses, will result in high No-Sparge Mash η. At that point only gravity will start to affect it.

Bryan is the best example of high No-Sparge η that I know, due to the fact that most of his beers are < 13 °P and he has a bottom drain MLT. He's at 90% No-Sparge Mash η.

The key points are:

1.) pH and recirculation ensure 100% Conversion η. Mash η = Lauter η when Conversion η is 100%.

2.) Limiting or eliminating MLT deadspace leaves only absorption and increases Lauter η.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:20:31 PM by Big Monk »

Offline neddles

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 02:01:35 PM »
Traditional BIAB here. On a 1.044 beer and 60 min boil with 100% conversion I get 86% and 79% brewhouse.

Offline SilverZero

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2017, 02:16:57 PM »
I'm actually switching to a full-volume mash for my next brew and if it works out I'll probably stick with it. I'm doing 11-12 gallon batches in a 20-gallon eHERMS system, and I'll be using a Wilser bag eventually. I'll probably either use a plain homemade voile bag this weekend, but if I can't get it together in time I'll just have a false bottom. Really hoping to have a bag for the sake of quicker clean-up!

Offline stpug

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2017, 02:59:48 PM »
I went from batch sparging (78-80% BK eff) to no-sparge biab (81-82% BK eff), so an actual gain in efficiency.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: BIAB no spargers
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 11:59:59 PM »
Limiting or eliminating MLT deadspace leaves only absorption and increases Lauter η.

Derrick, what grain absorption factor are you using at home?