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Author Topic: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?  (Read 10450 times)

Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:26 am »


I am however still searching for a recipe that will results in what looks like you poured tropicana orange juice in a glass reminiscent of brews from omnipollo, noble ale works, highland park— especially omnipollo!  I think it's just filters from photo software  ;D.  Ive used combinations of 2-row, red wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, C-40, carapils, honey malt, oat malt, Munich I and II you name it.  Any and all suggestions would be great!

just my 2 cents... cheers!

I brew these all the time.... probably 50+ batches at the very least.  Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.  Additionally.... I would say that my strategy of using the "dry hop keg" for the second dry hop is not necessary based on some recent batches I have brewed.  You could simply add all of the dry hops to primary at day 3-4 or you could add half at day 3-4 and the other half around day 10-12 ..... 2 days before kegging.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

To the OP....
Honestly - I don't find Heady Topper to be "juicy" in the same regard as say Treehouse, Trillium, Toppling Goliath, etc.  It is a far more assertive DIPA than many others.

I think the key things in my experience.....
*Water - use 100% RO water.  5.4 pH in mash and boil kettle pre-boil.  Get both sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range.... As long as they are both in that range somewhere, you will be ok in my experience.  Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

*I use 80% base malt and 18% combination of flaked grains/wheat in any combination basically.  2% honey malt is for a bit of color and sweetness

*I prefer citra/mosaic/galaxy combinations with a 30-50 IBU bittering of Warrior

*Hop stand after flame out and a bit of chilling... get wort down to 170 or so, dump hops in, 30 minutes of steep, stir it up occasionally.

*Yeast is not as important as people make it out.  You do not want the beer "yeasty".  Honestly, I really like 1272 and 1056 for this beer, along with Conan.  I am not a huge fan of 1318 personally.... comes off as "tart" to me.

*Big dry hop at day 3 of ferment.... I think the "haze" seems to come from the hop stand and the first dry hop during fermentation.  I think that is where the "juicy" flavors of hops also come from.

Check out the recipe link above and you might get some other ideas you could add to what you are doing.

The batch I have on tap right now -
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 07:19:41 am by braufessor »

Offline ultravista

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2017, 08:06:25 am »
braufessor - I am a water novice, beyond filtering the mash and sparge water (charcoal filter), I do not do anything. My Las Vegas water is hard but makes a good IPA.

I like the soft mouth feel of the NEIPAs and would l like to replicate it if possible.

Can you simply break-down what I need (and perhaps where to get it) to build my water profile to softe

CaCl, Gypsum, Sulfate and Chloride?

Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

Please break this down - you lost me after 'no acid needed'.

I usually kill the flame, let the wort cool down a bit (20 minutes) then hit it with the flameout hops @ 190-180 then again when it drops to 170 ish. Chilling is pretty quick after that via plate chiller.

Here is the hop schedule:

10.00 ML Hop Shot [3.35 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 92.9 IBUs
----
2.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 7 9.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 10 9.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 13 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs

Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2017, 08:22:44 am »
braufessor - I am a water novice, beyond filtering the mash and sparge water (charcoal filter), I do not do anything. My Las Vegas water is hard but makes a good IPA.

I like the soft mouth feel of the NEIPAs and would l like to replicate it if possible.

Can you simply break-down what I need (and perhaps where to get it) to build my water profile to softe

CaCl, Gypsum, Sulfate and Chloride?

Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

Please break this down - you lost me after 'no acid needed'.

I usually kill the flame, let the wort cool down a bit (20 minutes) then hit it with the flameout hops @ 190-180 then again when it drops to 170 ish. Chilling is pretty quick after that via plate chiller.

Here is the hop schedule:

10.00 ML Hop Shot [3.35 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 92.9 IBUs
----
2.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 7 9.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Steep/Wh Hop 10 9.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Steep Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 13 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
----
1.00 oz Simply Select Hop Blend [6.60 %] - Dry H Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Apollo [17.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs

Without knowing what someone's specific water profile is, I really hesitate to give any specific additions.  My home water source is very high in bicarbonate hardness.... it makes lousy IPA's.

My generic recommendation for these NE IPA's (especially if you do not know what your source water contains, and especially for those people that do not want to mess with water calculations) is to do the following:
*1 tsp each of Calcium Chloride and Gypsum per 5 gallons of mash and sparge water.
*Start with 100% RO water
 
If you do this, you will come in around 120-140ppm of Sulfate and Chloride.  Your calcium will be 80-100.  Your mash and boil pH will fall into the desired range roughly (thus, you will not need to add any acid to adjust mash pH).  It is a simple/easy way to get you in the ballpark for this kind of beer.

You can get Calcium Chloride and Gypsum easily/cheaply at any home-brew store.
Calcium chloride adds the Chloride
Gypsum adds the sulfate
They both add Calcium

If you are not familiar with the style, if you do not know exactly what your water is like.... I really recommend doing at least one batch as described above (with RO water) to get a baseline. 

in regard to your hops... the schedule looks fine to me.  I would make sure the first dry hop is going into the fermenter at day 3-4.  I cannot comment on the hop combo - I have not done anything that similar.  I will say, I "personally" am not a huge fan of Columbus, Centennial type hops in these beers..... I just find them to be hops that can "get away" from you in terms of harshness.  I personally find centennial to be a bit "drying" when put in the dry hops.  That said, that is my personal taste - many others very much like those combos.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:25:24 am by braufessor »

Offline narcout

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2017, 11:02:42 am »
Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.

Wow, thank you for posting that.  I'm going to save to a PDF for future reference, makes me want to try brewing one of these though I've never had one (except for Heady Topper, but it sounds like that is kind of an outlier)...
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline ultravista

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2017, 11:50:40 am »
braufessor - thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

On your HBT 'Northeast' style IPA thread, you list the following for 100% RO water.

  • Gypsum = .9 grams/gallon
    CaCl = .4 grams/gallon
    Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
    Canning Salt = .05 grams/gallon
    Lactic Acid = I add about .5ml- 1ml

For this thread, why the lack Epson/Salt/Lactic Acid?


Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2017, 12:05:17 pm »
braufessor - thank you for taking the time to detail this for me.

On your HBT 'Northeast' style IPA thread, you list the following for 100% RO water.

  • Gypsum = .9 grams/gallon
    CaCl = .4 grams/gallon
    Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
    Canning Salt = .05 grams/gallon
    Lactic Acid = I add about .5ml- 1ml

For this thread, why the lack Epson/Salt/Lactic Acid?

That is what I originally used when I first put the recipe together.  I have played around with the water profile quite a bit. I actually did 3 batches at once with the following water profiles:
Sulfate 140:Chloride 70
Sulfate 70: Chloride 140
Sulfate 120:Chlordie 120

I had all 3 of them on tap at one time.... in multiple blind triangle tests I could not reliably tell the difference.  Neither could several others.  So.... in part.... I just don't think minor adjustments matter that much.

Secondly - the recommendation I gave in this thread was geared toward - "here is the simplest solution that will put you right in the ball park of what is needed for a beer like this."   It is easy to overcomplicate things and end up doing yourself no good, or worse.

Thirdly - one of the most common questions I get in the other thread is "I don't know what my tap water is.... what should I add?"  Or "I don't want to mess with water chemistry/don't have a scale - what is the simple way?"  So, that is why I have the 100% RO plus a tsp each of gypsum and CaCl. 

For anyone brewing a beer like this for the first time - what I gave is a very solid starting point.  In subsequent batches, tweak the water to see if something suits your own personal taste possibly.  Like I said - 100% RO water and get the sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range and you will be at a good starting point.


Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2017, 12:36:30 pm »

Wow, thank you for posting that.  I'm going to save to a PDF for future reference, makes me want to try brewing one of these though I've never had one (except for Heady Topper, but it sounds like that is kind of an outlier)...

Give it a shot - it is a great drinking IPA.  At 1.060 you can easily put away 3-4 in a hurry.  It is "typical" of a true NE IPA...... of course, yours might not taste quite as good out there on the West Coast ;)

Let me know if you have any questions if you decide to brew it..... like I said, I brew this all the time.  Might as well learn from my mistakes:)

Offline ultravista

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2017, 08:52:50 pm »
Per the 2016 Las Vegas water report, average values are:

* ALKALINITY             146 ppm
* CHLORIDE               92  ppm
* SULFATE                 235 ppm
* CALCIUM                 79  ppm
* MAGNESIUM            26  ppm

* TOTAL HARDNESS    303 ppm

"In the Las Vegas Valley, the two nontoxic minerals that cause our hard water are calcium and magnesium. The hardness of Las Vegas Valley Water District water is 302 parts per million (ppm) or 18 grains per gallon, categorized as "very hard.""

So that would be ~ 2:5 ratio of Chloride to Sulfate or too heavy on the sulfate?

https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf

Does 'soft' water that produces a 'soft pillowy mouthfeel'?

Not sure what else to look for ...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:17:30 pm by ultravista »

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2017, 10:40:43 pm »
Yea that may be high sulfate for a NEIPA but I've never brewed one on purpose.  That's not too higher sulfate for an AIPA.

I'd just use RO water.  Get the 5G jug and fill at one of those self-serve stations. At around 36 cents per gallon it doesn't add much to the cost of the beer.  The minerals can be found in your LHBS.  Download Bru'n Water to get the profile you want.
Brian
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Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2017, 06:28:14 am »
Per the 2016 Las Vegas water report, average values are:

* ALKALINITY             146 ppm
* CHLORIDE               92  ppm
* SULFATE                 235 ppm
* CALCIUM                 79  ppm
* MAGNESIUM            26  ppm

* TOTAL HARDNESS    303 ppm

"In the Las Vegas Valley, the two nontoxic minerals that cause our hard water are calcium and magnesium. The hardness of Las Vegas Valley Water District water is 302 parts per million (ppm) or 18 grains per gallon, categorized as "very hard.""

So that would be ~ 2:5 ratio of Chloride to Sulfate or too heavy on the sulfate?

https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/wq_summary_lvvwd.pdf

Does 'soft' water that produces a 'soft pillowy mouthfeel'?

Not sure what else to look for ...

Yeah - I agree that is on the high side of sulfate for this kind of beer.  I would lean toward RO water as suggested above.  At the very least, you might be able to cut the water 50/50 with RO water and then add approximately 1/2-3/4 tsp of CaCl per 5 gallons back in.  That would effectively cut the sulfate to 120 or so.  And then the calcium chloride addition would bump the chloride and calcium back up to the ballpark area you are looking for.

That said - none of this accounts for your mash pH/beer pH which is important.  You would still have alkalinity in there that is not great to have.  Off the top of my head, 1ml of lactic acid per 5 gallons would probably do the trick  (or get you close)in that regard.

The refill stations with 3 or 5 gallon jugs for RO water in supermarkets/walmart are definitely the way to go - cheap and easy.  Brun Water is also a great tool - it is what I use.  A bit daunting on first glance - but not that bad once you get going on it.

I would still recommend the original suggestion of 100%  RO water as being ideal.   The above would probably get you close.

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2017, 12:10:23 pm »


I am however still searching for a recipe that will results in what looks like you poured tropicana orange juice in a glass reminiscent of brews from omnipollo, noble ale works, highland park— especially omnipollo!  I think it's just filters from photo software  ;D.  Ive used combinations of 2-row, red wheat, flaked oats, flaked barley, C-40, carapils, honey malt, oat malt, Munich I and II you name it.  Any and all suggestions would be great!

just my 2 cents... cheers!

I brew these all the time.... probably 50+ batches at the very least.  Here is a link to my recipe/strategy.  If you follow the link in the first post to post #1418, that is what I would currently recommend.  Additionally.... I would say that my strategy of using the "dry hop keg" for the second dry hop is not necessary based on some recent batches I have brewed.  You could simply add all of the dry hops to primary at day 3-4 or you could add half at day 3-4 and the other half around day 10-12 ..... 2 days before kegging.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

To the OP....
Honestly - I don't find Heady Topper to be "juicy" in the same regard as say Treehouse, Trillium, Toppling Goliath, etc.  It is a far more assertive DIPA than many others.

I think the key things in my experience.....
*Water - use 100% RO water.  5.4 pH in mash and boil kettle pre-boil.  Get both sulfate and chloride into the 80-140 range.... As long as they are both in that range somewhere, you will be ok in my experience.  Calcium in the 80-90-100 kind of range.  Simple solution - 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of 100% RO water used in mash and sparge.  No acid needed.  That gets you in the ball park - around 120-140 each of sulfate and Chloride with that strategy.

*I use 80% base malt and 18% combination of flaked grains/wheat in any combination basically.  2% honey malt is for a bit of color and sweetness

*I prefer citra/mosaic/galaxy combinations with a 30-50 IBU bittering of Warrior

*Hop stand after flame out and a bit of chilling... get wort down to 170 or so, dump hops in, 30 minutes of steep, stir it up occasionally.

*Yeast is not as important as people make it out.  You do not want the beer "yeasty".  Honestly, I really like 1272 and 1056 for this beer, along with Conan.  I am not a huge fan of 1318 personally.... comes off as "tart" to me.

*Big dry hop at day 3 of ferment.... I think the "haze" seems to come from the hop stand and the first dry hop during fermentation.  I think that is where the "juicy" flavors of hops also come from.

Check out the recipe link above and you might get some other ideas you could add to what you are doing.

The batch I have on tap right now -


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2017, 03:04:02 pm »


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2017, 03:26:03 pm »


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.




We clearly have a lot in common, brewing wise. I buy a ton of hops, use a ton in AIPA and APA (aside from the fact that I don't/haven't brewed NEIPA), but I also need variety after a beer like that and love to brew lagers and several other styles. My hops in the freezer constitute a....umm....large amount.
Jon H.

Offline braufessor

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2017, 04:18:09 pm »


holy cow.that is awesome, but What does your hop costs look like?

I will neither confirm nor deny that I ordered $500 worth of hops from Hop Heaven several months ago :o 

I buy everything by the pound..... so, $1-$1.50 per pound...... If I am going with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic combos that can obviously be $12-$18 worth for a brew.  You sure as heck do not want to brew these and buy your hops by the ounce.

However, the other beers I tend to brew a lot use much less in the way of hops -
German Lagers
Blonde Ales/Kolsch
Dark Mild
Porters
etc..... so, that kind of averages things out a bit.




We clearly have a lot in common, brewing wise. I buy a ton of hops, use a ton in AIPA and APA (aside from the fact that I don't/haven't brewed NEIPA), but I also need variety after a beer like that and love to brew lagers and several other styles. My hops in the freezer constitute a....umm....large amount.

Yeah..... I needed this last order of hops like I needed a hole in the head.  But, on a bright note - I am good for a year+ for sure :)  Plus it is nice to have them on hand and not end up scrounging around trying to buy 4 ounces of galaxy here and there for crazy amounts.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Making Norther Brewers "Off the Topper" Juicy?
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2017, 04:30:09 pm »
For sure. It's great to have options.    :)
Jon H.