Author Topic: Hoppy beer.  (Read 1048 times)

Offline curtdogg

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Hoppy beer.
« on: January 27, 2017, 01:33:36 AM »
Every time i try to make a hop forward beer i get this certain flavor that i cant describe. I just transfered a pale ale to secondary in order to dry hop take my FG reading and taste and i got the same weird flavor. I let my wife taste it and the first thing she says is it tastes like caramel popcorn. WTF?
Could it be Diacytal ? I don't think i know what it tastes like, or at least i don't think the sample tastes like butter.

3 gallons batch.
80% 2 row
10% munich
10% c60
Mash pH 5.4
Pale Ale Profile Bru n Water.
Tried to match profile close as possible using calclo, gypsum and baking soda.
Citra and cascade 39 ibu.
Us 05
60 minute boil
Chill to 80f put in the fermentation freezer to cool to 60 usually happens overnight
OG 1.056
Pitch yeast at 60f fermentation starts in about 1.5 days. Ramp to 65 over 3 days and hold for 4 days til FG is 1.012 - 1.010.

Any ideas or flaws in the process jump out ?

Much appreciated.
Curtis




Offline homebrewdad7

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 04:56:55 AM »
To me, diacetyl tastes like cheap butterscotch candy, or even movie theatre popcorn butter.  That said, 60F is a cool ferment, so diacetyl production could be a thing you're having.

Oxidation can present as a caramel/sweet flavor in some cases - this is one reason why British ales exported to the US have so much caramel flavor, as opposed to how they taste in the UK - oxidation.  Of course, oxidation usually takes time to manifest, so...

Hoe long are you staying in primary?  How are you transferring?  Why are you transferring to secondary in the first place?  (you asked about flaws in your process - to me, transferring to secondary is a definite flaw)

Do you ever use other yeast, and if so, do you still get the flavor? 

Offline theoman

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 08:46:20 AM »
Get rid of the Cara 60, let the primary go for another week and I'll bet the odd flavor will be gone.

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 12:04:34 PM »
Us05 should be fine, but ramp up to atleast 68F for a few days and try another sample.  , +1 to removing the secondary fermentation vessel.

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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2017, 12:22:21 PM »
Could it be an infection?

If there's only a little of it, I detect a slickness on the roof of my mouth from diacetyl more easily than I can taste it. Go find a bottle of Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale and try it, that's the poster child beer for diacetyl not always being a bad thing.

The British export beers are typically higher in gravity than those served in country as well, which could also add more caramel flavors to the beers. I've never noticed oxidation as caramel, usually it's a cloying sweetness, honey, or cardboard. FWIW, using invert syrup adds a nice caramel flavor while keeping the beer dry. Useful if you want some similar flavors to crystal malt, but without the associated problems.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline pete b

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »
10% C60 isn't a crazy amount but it's way more than I would use. My go to grist for hop forward American ale is 80% pale, 20% Munich with no crystal/Carmel malts. To my taste that gives a nice malty backbone without sweetness and really let's the hops take center stage.
I think to some 10% Carmel and 10% Munich would give a Carmel taste not appropriate for and American IPA/APA.
Also, I noticed that you tasted before dry hopping. The dry hops may overwhelm that Carmel taste for a week or two. Drink it fast if it does!
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Offline curtdogg

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2017, 01:08:36 PM »
To me, diacetyl tastes like cheap butterscotch candy, or even movie theatre popcorn butter.  That said, 60F is a cool ferment, so diacetyl production could be a thing you're having.

Oxidation can present as a caramel/sweet flavor in some cases - this is one reason why British ales exported to the US have so much caramel flavor, as opposed to how they taste in the UK - oxidation.  Of course, oxidation usually takes time to manifest, so...

Hoe long are you staying in primary?  How are you transferring?  Why are you transferring to secondary in the first place?  (you asked about flaws in your process - to me, transferring to secondary is a definite flaw)

Do you ever use other yeast, and if so, do you still get the flavor?
Primary for 10 days.
I've used s04 for this recipe before and it actually turned out good.

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2017, 01:09:46 PM »
Get rid of the Cara 60, let the primary go for another week and I'll bet the odd flavor will be gone.
Crystal 60L
Whats the thought behind that?
Thanks.

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2017, 01:11:15 PM »
Us05 should be fine, but ramp up to atleast 68F for a few days and try another sample.  , +1 to removing the secondary fermentation vessel.

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Its been cold lately, i couldn't get much above 65F. I need brew belt to get higher.  Thanks J.

Offline pete b

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »
Get rid of the Cara 60, let the primary go for another week and I'll bet the odd flavor will be gone.
Crystal 60L
Whats the thought behind that?
Thanks.
I think I may have explained the dropping the C60 in my post that I was writing while you were posting.

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Offline curtdogg

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2017, 01:17:30 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.  Im thinking my problem lies 2 fold.
I will make a small batch without crystal 60 and ferment higher to see what happens.

I appreciate the input.

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2017, 01:19:59 PM »
Us05 should be fine, but ramp up to atleast 68F for a few days and try another sample.  , +1 to removing the secondary fermentation vessel.

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Its been cold lately, i couldn't get much above 65F. I need brew belt to get higher.  Thanks J.
I hear ya.  Do you have a centrally located closet that you could put an electric heater in?  Something set to the lowest setting should be 70f ambient.  And your brew will benefit from a high temp rest.  Your 2ndary with some yeast in suspension will clean up some diacetyl.  Which is my best guess.  Unless you picked up an infection, and it's reacting with the hops for the 'weird' flavor.

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Offline curtdogg

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2017, 01:24:44 PM »
Us05 should be fine, but ramp up to atleast 68F for a few days and try another sample.  , +1 to removing the secondary fermentation vessel.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
Its been cold lately, i couldn't get much above 65F. I need brew belt to get higher.  Thanks J.
I hear ya.  Do you have a centrally located closet that you could put an electric heater in?  Something set to the lowest setting should be 70f ambient.  And your brew will benefit from a high temp rest.  Your 2ndary with some yeast in suspension will clean up some diacetyl.  Which is my best guess.  Unless you picked up an infection, and it's reacting with the hops for the 'weird' flavor.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
I like to think that i have a good sanitation practice. I will try to rest at 70F for the last few days of dry hop.
Thanks.

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »
Us05 should be fine, but ramp up to atleast 68F for a few days and try another sample.  , +1 to removing the secondary fermentation vessel.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
Its been cold lately, i couldn't get much above 65F. I need brew belt to get higher.  Thanks J.
I hear ya.  Do you have a centrally located closet that you could put an electric heater in?  Something set to the lowest setting should be 70f ambient.  And your brew will benefit from a high temp rest.  Your 2ndary with some yeast in suspension will clean up some diacetyl.  Which is my best guess.  Unless you picked up an infection, and it's reacting with the hops for the 'weird' flavor.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
I like to think that i have a good sanitation practice. I will try to rest at 70F for the last few days of dry hop.
Thanks.
Who doesn't like to think that? 

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Offline theoman

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Re: Hoppy beer.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2017, 02:20:54 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.  Im thinking my problem lies 2 fold.
I will make a small batch without crystal 60 and ferment higher to see what happens.

I appreciate the input.

Fermenting higher will probably help, if there's diacetyl, but 65 is plenty warm for 05. I'd say keep it on the cooler side, but give it more time. I use US-05 often, usually between 60-65 and love the results.