[Hand of Dom]

I have mixed feelings..... I can see your point... We should indeed all try harder to always address the OP's concerns and tie back to the OP as much as possible.  And if not, yes, new thread.  But on the other hand, there are entertaining times as well.  A little bit of derail is a good thing.  Out of hand, a bad thing.  Yeah.  The most important thing is "balance".  It's all about "balance". 

I think it depends on the thread. I've certainly learned quite a bit from the many derails that have happened on here.

Sometimes things turn into a derails when a low oxygen reference is made and people (again) start debating about if it really matters or not. Lately it seems those against low oxygen brewing have been stirring the pot, and that has resulted in a few threads getting derailed. Let the low oxygen folks say their piece and just move on, and debate them in another thread.

If a new member asked about starters, and someone suggested SNS instead of a stirplate, we wouldn't start debating if SNS starters are a valid approach or not.

Completely agree with both these points.

[Stevie]

From what I remember, the resistance wasn't doubting SNS, but because of the anti-stirplate stance of Mark. It's not the introduction of something new as much as it's the discrediting of practices used by many. People don't like to be told they are wrong.

I appreciate the low oxygen research and participation of those spreading its merits, but we all need to "know our audience" before replying. While most of the posts are by advanced brewers, I assume most of the posters/readers fall into the beginner-intermediate crowd. I wouldn't reply to an OP asking about when to add extract with "don't add extract and switch to all-grain." I know that's hyperbolic, but it fits my point.

There is a lot of pot stirring from a few members and even mods. That's sad.

[dmtaylor]

I'll say this one time and one time only.  Please don't get too excited and don't let this turn into yet another derail.

I think the trouble with LODO is, it's not the standard yet, and barely any people know about it yet -- probably way less than 5% of all homebrewers know anything about it, so every single time that it's brought up, the next question is, "what's LODO?" and we have to go into more detail, yadda yadda, so just by bringing it up at all can turn the whole dang thread into yet another derail.  Maybe one day far in the future, the process will become more well known and understood, and maybe forums like these are the best way to get the information out there, and that's fine, I have no problem with that.  But I can see this both ways.  From one side, LODO proponents see this method as the answer to a LOT of problems, and have been extremely vocal about it, while on the flip side, others see these terms and references as constant reminders of something they don't agree with, don't know anything about, or just are unwilling to accept (yet).  Personally I'm undecided as to the merits at this point but if I had to lean one way, I'm honestly growing more and more tired of constantly hearing of how it can cure-all.  Right or wrong, that's the impression I have and the taste in my mouth at this point in time.

But anyway, we digress, significantly.......   My apologies to all those who will get excited by this response.  My advice: Please DON'T get excited.  After all, I'm truly just another idiot from the interwebs.  I have opinions, and so do you, so let's just feel free to put out our opinions with no fear of retribution, and respect each other.  I promise, I truly promise, that I am actively trying harder to do the same.

Cheers all.  Relax.  Have a homebrew. 

[narvin]

I like turtles!

... sorry, I had to.  I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.

[dmtaylor]

I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.

I do think derails have gotten worse in recent years, in maybe about the past ~2 years.  There's FAR less traffic on all forums these days, too, which only serves to distill out the really vocal and really major obsessive nuts such as myself.  The less obsessive or very knowledgeable folks have largely moved out of the forums because they 1) learned enough and didn't find them valuable any longer, and/or 2) because they don't enjoy discussions with some of those who remain (and the list goes on but these two serve my point).  If true, this is indeed kind of a sad state of the forum (note: tying back to the OP!).

I for one promise I'm a nice guy in real life.  I'm just a real obsessive dork when it comes to homebrewing, that's all.  Profuse apologies to all those I have ever offended.  I really don't mean to.  Hope you all feel the same way if you've ever felt yourself to be in a similar role.  Maybe it really is time to take more of a back seat from here on out.  I'll think about this.  It's just...... difficult to give up an addiction.  And for some of us, like me, these forums truly are an addiction of sorts.  This too is a little bit sad.  A little bit. 

[pete b]

As far as the aspect of sticking to the original question, I agree and feel bad when the OP, especially when they are new to brewing, don't get good responses and even worse listen to some here air their oxygen free dirty laundry. OTOH sometimes derails are fun and useful. I say as long as the OP isn't disrespected a derail can be OK and adds to a conversational tone.
As far as the aspect of civility goes I just wish people on both sides of an issue would be more respectful at the same time not be too thin skinned.

[case thrower]

I like turtles!

... sorry, I had to.  I agree that it's good to stay on topic but i'm not sure it's any worse than it's ever been.

Yeah, Happy Together is a great song.

I've been reading here quite a long time and Narvin is right.  It's no worse.  I realized a long while back that if the poster didn't get an answer to his specific question within the first page, he wasn't going to get one.

[Phil_M]

From what I remember, the resistance wasn't doubting SNS, but because of the anti-stirplate stance of Mark. It's not the introduction of something new as much as it's the discrediting of practices used by many. People don't like to be told they are wrong.

I appreciate the low oxygen research and participation of those spreading its merits, but we all need to "know our audience" before replying. While most of the posts are by advanced brewers, I assume most of the posters/readers fall into the beginner-intermediate crowd. I wouldn't reply to an OP asking about when to add extract with "don't add extract and switch to all-grain." I know that's hyperbolic, but it fits my point.

There is a lot of pot stirring from a few members and even mods. That's sad.

I don't see adding advanced techniques to such a post is in and of itself a bad thing though. More knowledge isn't an issue if it may help the OP, even if only in the long run.

However, if that's the case, I would agree it would best to say "well ideally you'd do x, but in the meantime try y." For example, somebody complaining about oxidation in a dry Irish stout may be told that low oxygen is the ultimate solution, but in the meantime, just try spunding. (Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common practice...)

But I digress...though I tried to still relate it to the topic at hand... 

[HoosierBrew]

Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.

Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   

[denny]

Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.

Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.

[Phil_M]

Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.

Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.

Same. I'm trying a kinda hybrid approach. I'm going to add primings, probably more than I need, and maybe some dry US-05to make sure that I've got active yeast as quickly as possible. We'll see how it works, at any rate it shouldn't be worse than simply keg conditioning.

[HoosierBrew]

Of all the low exygen techniques, this is the one that I really don't understand why it isn't common.

Again, I agree, Phil. After spunding a couple batches, I'm sold. Totally solves the oxidation from kegging issue. Very noticeable difference, especially on longevity of hop aromas in dry hopped beers. It's low oxygen packaging and works great. By no means saying my beer is better than anyone's.   

How about scheduling?  With my life there's very little chance I could do spunding.

It's tricky to hit perfectly at 4 points over FG when you have to work. I kegged the lagers at day 5 and the IPA on day 4, and got both mostly carbed. I think the best attribute though is having active yeast to scavenge the O2 fron the keg.

[dmtaylor]

You guys are colossally derailing here. 

[HoosierBrew]

You guys are colossally derailing here. 

Outta control.  .  Totally my bad.

[dmtaylor]

You guys are colossally derailing here. 

Outta control.  .  Totally my bad.

This is why the mere mention of the term "low oxygen" needs to be handled with EXTREME care, every single damn time.