[Iliff Ave]

A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.

I pretty much agree with this. Things that people type are often misunderstood or misconstrued without any intent. I often think about how my comments are received and if they are meant to be received in that way. Conversely, I can sometimes get a little irritated with others replies to me but it may likely be related to me not understanding that it's supposed to be about what they say not how they say it. Communicating over the interwebs is a strange thing...

[bayareabrewer]

A friend of mine is a parole agent, and he talks to some pretty crazy people at work that are violent and unstable, and part of his job is telling them the are getting a parole violation and going to jail. Needless to say, this is sure to not go over well with people that are already unstable and violent, yet he rarely gets in altercations with the parolees. His secret-it's in the delivery. He can tell people precisely what they don't want to hear so long as he delivers the message well.

I tell this story because I think the root cause of the occasional conflict here isn't that people have differing brewing practices, but that the delivery of certain messages is flawed.

You can be as right as rain on a subject, but if you come across as a jerk while doing it, you probably won't be received well.

I pretty much agree with this. Things that people type are often misunderstood or misconstrued without any intent. I often think about how my comments are received and if they are meant to be received in that way. Conversely, I can sometimes get a little irritated with others replies to me but it may likely be related to me not understanding that it's supposed to be about what they say not how they say it. Communicating over the interwebs is a strange thing...

very true.

[skyler]

I agree with most of what OP is saying here, but I don't think the issue is the "tangents," I think it is the lack of decorum, which may or may not be intentional. Perhaps the cause is an increased number of arrogant, thin-skinned millennials (no offense to my fellow 90's kids).

This used to be a friendly and helpful forum for moderately skilled to advanced-level brewers back when I was a more regular contributor (2010-2013). This was where you "graduated" to after you outgrew BN and NB (which is where you went after you outgrew HBT and a few more ancient forums). Now you can either get horrible advice from unemployed neckbeards on Reddit or deal with a lot of snooty unpleasantness on this forum.


This is how I see 9 out of 10 conversations go on homebrew forums these days (not just here):

OP: I'm looking into upgrading from my Mr. Beer kit that I have used for two years (it cracked!) and have about $1000 to spend, what should I do?

A1: Buy an aluminum kettle and lots of liquid malt extract. Use lots of specialty malts. Don't follow recipes. You don't want to make BMC crap!

B1: I would get a 10 gallon steel kettle if you're looking to brew 5 gal batches. Then get some bucket fermenters (2 should be enough) or carboys. If you have been brewing for a while, you may want to look into getting a kegging kit, but you will need a decent bottling bucket if you aren't kegging. You may save $$$ by buying a kit. Pay attention to fermentation management - temperature control and yeast starters will make a major improvement! After brewing a few extract batches that you are reasonably happy with, look into building a mash tun - there are lots of different styles, but I like style A (styleabrewing.com/mashtunmadeforme).

C1: The only way to brew is to custom-build this system that will take seventeen engineers and $400,000. B's beer tastes like cat puke because he doesn't have use a tachyon emitter to ionize the atmosphere to hide his IBUs from the Romulan probe. Don't fall into that trap. Here's 4,000 pages of science, most of it is in German, but if you can't figure out what they mean with Google translate, then you shouldn't be brewing, anyway.

D1: Buy a kit!

B2: @C, OP can't read German and he didn't say anything about owning a starship, give it a rest.

C2: Science science science. B can't handle the science of his awful beer. 

E: I agree with A - go aluminum. Excellent strength to weight ratio!

C3: Aluminum will work acceptably if you oxidize it properly. Theorhetically, boiling dihydrogen monoxide can make this happen for you. Make sure you manage this well with chemicals because of science.

F: I agree with what B is saying, except I have had no need for yeast starters because I use dry yeast. And don't go with aluminum, it's a lot more hassle for a little less money. I got a bad metallic flavor from my old aluminum kettle and now it just takes up space in the garage. Here's the kit I would recommend: (homebrewshoponothersideofmoon.com/greatkit). C's adherence to the brewing doctrine of the DS9-era Tal Shiar is unproven sci fi and most people want more lens flair.

OP2: Ok, I bought this kit (www.evilhomebrew.com/terriblekit) I can't wait to brew this pliny kit. It cost me $300 for the ingredients, so if it doesn't come out perfect, I am quitting the hobby. Thanks for the help, A and E!


In this instance, C isn't being helpful because they are offering advanced Roddenberrian brewing advice to a relative newb. B is trying to be helpful, but OP is getting directed to doing "what sounds the easiest" rather than "the best they can manage" because of the needless nagging and bragging by C. I, for one, am fascinated by what the LODO community has to say, and I would like to learn more about it and try some experiments to see if the extra effort is worth it. But instead of simply putting together a digestible website to showcase their approach, we get a lot of highly technical arguments that are unnecessary in posts from newbs and moderate-level brewers. This leads to an argument from someone who takes a less technical approach and it has lead to a generally less friendly and easy-going forum.

[dmtaylor]

I agree with most of what OP is saying here, but I don't think the issue is the "tangents," I think it is the lack of decorum, which may or may not be intentional. Perhaps the cause is an increased number of arrogant, thin-skinned millennials (no offense to my fellow 90's kids).

This used to be a friendly and helpful forum for moderately skilled to advanced-level brewers back when I was a more regular contributor (2010-2013). This was where you "graduated" to after you outgrew BN and NB (which is where you went after you outgrew HBT and a few more ancient forums). Now you can either get horrible advice from unemployed neckbeards on Reddit or deal with a lot of snooty unpleasantness on this forum.


This is how I see 9 out of 10 conversations go on homebrew forums these days (not just here):

OP: I'm looking into upgrading from my Mr. Beer kit that I have used for two years (it cracked!) and have about $1000 to spend, what should I do?

A1: Buy.....

Whoa......

+1.0E+100!!!!!!!

[flars]

Nonsense is just to prevalent.  Look what happened to the Boiling Temperature topic.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28551.45;topicseen
Don't say anything unless you have something relevant to say.

[Phil_M]

Nonsense is just to prevalent.  Look what happened to the Boiling Temperature topic.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28551.45;topicseen
Don't say anything unless you have something relevant to say.

I think Bryan added a lot of info, even if he didn't "properly" use acronyms. (National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA))

What bugs me around here is this. Bryan clearly knows his stuff. Not all of his advice may be of interest to you, but I doubt anyone would question his brewing knowledge. (in a general sense, please let's not devolve into nitpicking) Now compare the way many treat Bryan to other knowledgeable sources on this forum, Martin's words are taken as gospel, and rightly so. I know Bryan rubs some folks the wrong way, but let's just try and look past that. (I was one of them) He means well, let's just cut him (and everyone else) some slack, and not assume that any little phrase was intended to inflame.

[Big Monk]

Unfortunately this is going to my last post for while. As tiring as some of you may find our approach, I find it equally tiring that people feel the need to police the forum. No one has deputized anyone here to stand up for the poor, the tired masses, yearning to brew free.

One of the major oversights related to people griping about the delivery of Bryan or I, is that they forget that I, of all people, know exactly what they are getting at. In fact, I know why you do and say what you do in reaction to our posts better than you do. In fact I WAS you in not that far distant of a past. If you have frequented the forum over the last few years you may remember some major shots fired in a very non friendly way between a certain rabeb25 and RPIScotty. Now I  am proud to be a collaborator of Bryan's. In fact, I credit this collaboration with reinvigorating my interest in brewing. I very much enjoy how he gets his points across. I remember when I returned here that this was a shocking revelation for some. My turnaround that is.

We had a good thing going for a while here: positive feedback, great questions and genuine interest. It was so great to see the forum embrace the new presentation of the Low Oxygen information. But as is always the case, someone invariably comes out of nowhere and trudges up some of the same negative sentiments that plagued the first round of Low Oxygen conversation. So now it may be time to focus more on the website and less on the forums. If this recent resurgence of unfounded criticism has done anything, it has shown those who see the merit in the methods the true colors of the type of people they can expect to butt heads with.

I have to say that I would still love to converse with those who have shown a genuine interest in the methods and techniques. You all know who you are and I wish you continued luck and hope you keep devouring the information. PM me if you need any support on the spreadsheets.

One of the major beefs I've seen discussed is the insistence that we somehow are telling people they brew bad beer. I don't think we ever explicitly say that. We DO believe that this is the BEST way to brew beer but that does not mean that YOUR BEER IS BAD! The whole reason we devoted months and months of writing the documents on the website, experimenting, developing the spreadsheets and modifying the methods to include incremental approaches was to SERVE YOU! We feel we can help you brew BETTER beer. If you don't want to brew the best beer you possibly can, what's the point? And if the delivery really bothers you that much: get over it! We are adults after all.

I work in commercial Nuclear as an electrical engineer. There are times when one of our units is down in a forced outage and we are stressed to the gills. We are expected to maintain technical rigor and make the right decisions. We don't always talk cordially. In fact, things get heated even between engineers and first line supervisors. We get our point across bluntly and succinctly and we don't care about the feelings of the receiver, especially when nuclear safety and financial viability are involved. You get over it. You move on. You don't forsake good technical information because it was brought to you in a less than desirable way.




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[Phil_M]

Derek, I think this place would be better if you guys stuck around.

If anything all this has sparked life back into what was otherwise a dead and dying forum after the last low O₂ thing. We need to hash out new techniques, isn't trying new things part of what homebrewing is all about?

[klickitat jim]

The big difference between here and work is the pension.  Other than that, no difference

[bayareabrewer]

The big difference between here and work is the pension.  Other than that, no difference

haha

[klickitat jim]

I was in the tap room at Deschutes Brewing today in Bend and a guy from Eugene asked me if I knew who Denny was. Denny Conn, I says... ya, that's him. I said, never met him but I hear great things.

[JT]

I took quite a few months off the forum (and brewing for that matter).  My kegs ran dry, just busy with work and kids, no real other reason.  I returned and found some to be giving more advice and information more freely than I remembered and I thought it was great.  I saw others being more combative than I remembered...  not so great. 
I think we are all here to learn and/or share what we are learning, so grab a pint and chill out already.  Man... we need another Spring Swap!
We're missing enough peeps that contributed quite a bit already.  Where is Ken, Amanda and others?  Don't leave, stick around.  Forums are better with people and opinions!



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[narvin]

I asked for more information about making beers with "IT", and people have answered.  Eveyone was annoyed when it was a secret, so what are you complaining about now?

I haven't seen anything combative or snarky recently, so get over IT already 

[case thrower]

There's a simple solution!  There need to be MULTIPLE AHA FORUMS!!
First there's the NEWBIE forum.  'I just made the 1 gallon kit and it's my first brew and it's in the fermenter and it looks like a tornado in there.  Did I do something wrong?'  These guys just needs to hear the VERY basics.  You know, keep the fermenter somewhat cool and out of the light and don't worry about it, etc.  For crying out loud, they're making beer!  Might be bad beer, might be drinkable beer, but it's beer.
Next would be the INTERMEDIATE forum.  These brewers have the basics down and are dialing in.  The current thread about dry yeasts for an Irish Red is a great example of what this forum can be.  Information is exchanged.
Finally, there's the ADVANCED/GEEK forum.  By now you should have a good idea of how multiple forums would help!

[klickitat jim]

And one forum to rule them all.