Author Topic: Message to the forum. from me.  (Read 6100 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2017, 04:02:15 AM »
Curious who the troll was early on in the intro to lodo thread. I sped read about 35 pages and still didn't see any trolling. Honestly I only care if you think it was me, so I can fix that. And I'm fine with whoever just saying it, if it was me. If it's someone else I don't care.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2017, 04:07:14 AM »
Someone else.

I'm so tired of this and ready for it to all be over.  It's not even entertaining anymore.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline bboy9000

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2017, 04:54:49 AM »
Curious who the troll was early on in the intro to lodo thread. I sped read about 35 pages and still didn't see any trolling. Honestly I only care if you think it was me, so I can fix that. And I'm fine with whoever just saying it, if it was me. If it's someone else I don't care.
I'll say it.  Bay Area Brewer consistently comes in and details threads to start stuff.  Then Majorvices, Keith I believe, goes on a rant insinuating "LODO" proponents are the ones "hijacking" threads and uses the word "Nazi" describing them. 

Inappropriate for a mod.  Also, anyone who compares someone to a Nazi in debate loses all credibility.  Even in politics that is ridiculous (okay maybe if the person is actually a Nazi it isn't) but this is a hobby.  I vehemently disagreed with some of our political leaders in the past to the point of protesting.  But I always called out those comparing people to Nazis. It's a joke on Seinfeld but not in real life.
Brian
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Offline Pricelessbrewing

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2017, 05:10:43 AM »
In all honesty, the whole LODO thing throws me off. I don't really believe it right now, and haven't experienced in comparisons in person to be shown the errors of my ways. My only interaction with it are online, and the zealotry and holier than though phrasing used makes me just leave the thread as soon as I see LODO mentioned in more than two posts. I avoided these forums for a good 4-6 months as a result, and will likely do so again if it continues.

As far as moderation goes, the above is not appropriate behavior for a mod. There's plenty of posts that I don't agree with, but rarely find offensive. I just have learned by now that if it comes up, it's likely to derail the thread and I'm just going to go elsewhere until the topic comes up again in a new thread.

Curious who the troll was early on in the intro to lodo thread. I sped read about 35 pages and still didn't see any trolling. Honestly I only care if you think it was me, so I can fix that. And I'm fine with whoever just saying it, if it was me. If it's someone else I don't care.

I'll say it.  Bay Area Brewer consistently comes in and details threads to start stuff.  Then Majorvices, Keith I believe, goes on a rant insinuating "LODO" proponents are the ones "hijacking" threads and uses the word "Nazi" describing them. 


Offline homebrewdad7

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2017, 05:17:59 AM »
Adding an opinion that nobody asked for or probably wants, since I tend to stay completely out of forum arguments...

I don't know what to think of LODO.  I know that I'm not super interested in pursuing it at this time, as I'm focusing on other aspects of my brewing, and I have not properly educated myself on it.  I know that LODO got off on a bad foot with a lot of people, as it not only flies in the face of some of the conventional brewing wisdom, but due to the nigh cult-like condescending attitudes of some of the advocates of it.

That said, I have tried several times to replicate some German beers, and can get close - but not quite there.  I have a buddy that regularly wins medals (including at NHC) for his German beers, and he is also chasing the white whale of a Hofbrau Oktoberfest. Recently, he has started getting into LODO.  He reports a lighter wort/beer, and a difference in flavor.  Is it better?  Will that lead him to this promised land?  That remains to be seen.

But there is a lot of logic - and a fair amount of evidence - that there are at least some changes from LODO.  I will likely take some more in depth looks later on. 

What does that matter?  It doesn't.  I'm just one guy, brewing beer largely for my own consumption, right? 

But it does seem to me that we ought to be able to (a) discuss differing processes, and (b) disagree about the relative merits of said processes, in a civil manner.  It's okay to disagree, even to argue... but this stuff should never get personal.  We're talking about beer, folks.  Have some perspective.  Name calling isn't constructive, doesn't strengthen your position, and is not beneficial.  Due to the age requirements to legally brew, we are all adults here (or are pretending to be).  We ought to be able to act like it.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2017, 06:23:55 AM »
My time on the internet has been low to none this last week.

All I can think is that we are better than what I see has happened.

I have come to the point that I think LODO has improved some of my German lagers. I have spent enough time there to know what a well made Helles or Pils tastes like fresh at the source, and I have been getting closer.

Not all German Brewers brew LODO, but they aren't always making a light colored lager. I have a LODO Dunkel to taste when I get back home, and compare to the previous old technique batch.

Still tinkering, and learning.

Jeff Rankert
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Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Slowbrew

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2017, 12:48:42 PM »
I'll try to be careful here.  I have a tendency to make sarcastic comments and derail conversations, not just here but everywhere I go.  I have typed many replies on this board that I deleted before posting because they didn't feel "right".  Welcome to my sociological world problems.   ???

That being said; I have watched the battle around LODO on this forum and chosen to stay out of it.  I haven't looked into the actual processes and do not have time to at this point in my life.  I have seen instances where our moderators have made some defensive/offensive statements and dropped the gauntlet seemingly because they personally disagree with the thread.

I ask that we all pause, and reread our own posts before hitting the 'post" button.  Kind of like reading to the wall in grade school.  Most offense can be avoided by just taking time to think about how what you say will be perceived.

I have thought many times lately "here we go, it's the NB Brew-ha-ha again".  Please don't let hurt feelings tear apart a great resource.  I came here after the NB Brewer forum blew up and most of the members with useful comments migrated elsewhere.

Let's all try to make this a place where differing opinions can be discussed, not fought about.

To the Mods, Thanks for all you do.

Paul
Where the heck are we going?  And what's with this hand basket?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2017, 02:08:52 PM »
All I can think is that we are better than what I see has happened.

I have come to the point that I think LODO has improved some of my German lagers.

Still tinkering, and learning.





I agree, Jeff. None of us would be here if we weren't passionate about brewing. But the passion needs to be channeled toward respectful posts and not rude, personal ones which break a thread (and the whole forum) into dysfunction.
Jon H.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2017, 02:45:19 PM »
We all know how to make 99% of our problems disappear.  But we won't do it.  How many strikes should a person get?  How many?  We say that no one has any strikes, but we all know this isn't true either.  Perhaps it is time to update the "rules" with more specifics.  That, or, we ensure there's a rule that says "Anyone can be booted at any time for any reason or even for no apparent reason.  Don't like it, too effing bad."  Or perhaps this could be rephrased into kinder, gentler language, since at this point it seems perhaps the mods are still interested in being somewhat courteous.  But we need to have something like this, such as "One more strike and you're out -- you've been warned" kind of a thing.  Right now, I'm not sure we have anything like that.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 02:49:31 PM by dmtaylor »
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Hand of Dom

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2017, 03:03:14 PM »
But it does seem to me that we ought to be able to (a) discuss differing processes, and (b) disagree about the relative merits of said processes, in a civil manner.  It's okay to disagree, even to argue... but this stuff should never get personal.  We're talking about beer, folks.  Have some perspective.  Name calling isn't constructive, doesn't strengthen your position, and is not beneficial.  Due to the age requirements to legally brew, we are all adults here (or are pretending to be).  We ought to be able to act like it.

I agree with a great deal of what has been said in this thread, but I think this best sums things up for me.  I've only been on the forum for a year, but I find it a great source of knowledge and help, and I would hate to see things fall apart because adults can't act civil with each other.  Mods shouldn't really be required to do anything, beyond deleting the occasional spambot post.
Dom

Currently drinking - Amarillo saison
Currently fermenting - Pale ale 1 - 2017

Offline pete b

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2017, 03:21:23 PM »
First of all I would say that I like the mods and think overall they have done a good job. I think occasionally Denny and Keith, being human and all, have gotten into the lodo fray a bit too heavy and let some things on both sides go that should have been nipped in the bud. That's hindsight, I didn't really see it at the time because I largely kept out of it and quite frankly its kind of a tall order for someone generously giving their time. I think since Jon has been a mod he has set a good example of participating passionately in the debate while treating all opinions fairly. For example he is giving lodo a fair shake in his own brewing while still calling out bad behavior on both sides (I hesitate to say "sides" because there should not be sides, its ridiculous).
The mods asked for suggestions earlier. I think the big one is, when there is a controversy,to deescalate rather than escalate situation. I'm not sure if this already happens or not but my suggestion is to PM anyone stirring the pot asap and giving them a warning. I am in charge of 10 people and when I need someone to change their behavior I talk to them very directly and privately. Public shaming breeds defensiveness in the short term and resentment in the long term and arguing back and forth is the opposite of helpful.
More importantly we all need to take responsibility for our own actions, we can't rely on 3 volunteers to baby sit us.
A meditation teacher asked a group of us, in relation to the suffering caused by attachment to views, to paraphrase:"Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy", meaning sometimes we cause ourselves a lot of unhappiness by being rigid in our own views and trying to get others to accept them.
 
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2017, 03:32:38 PM »
I agree with Narvin and Phil.

As mods, you need to understand that you are held at a higher standard and should behave as such. Have an opinion is great, trolling is not.

I have never been an intentional troll. If I did troll any one here on the forum I feel it was taken out of context. Please understand the fine line mods and myself have to walk here. We want everyone's views to be expressed, but at the same time we simply just can't have opinions being dictated to the point of absolute.

I am offering an olive branch here. But on the other hand, I'm not going to tolerate being discredited every time I want to post. And in the end, that is what has been happening. Not just to me, but to many others. This is not conducive to a healthy environment. There is nothing wrong with disagreements. But there is something wrong with judging other people's beer entirely by their expression of process based on a few claims that are, frankly, insubstantial. Or at the very least, completely over blown.

No one here has to agree with each other's processes. But telling people they are doing in wrong simply because you think you are doing it "right" without even tasting the "offending beer" is just ridiculous.

For instance, I recently posted that a gentle simmering boil was fine to a question posed by another member. I am sure I have made good beer by following this method. But I was told that I was wrong and that my beer was surely crap because I didn't understand the science. And if that isn't exactly what was said that was exactly how I took it.

I am a damn good brewer. And I am sick and tired of being told my methods are insubstantial based on other peoples views. Maybe your beers are superior to mine, I would certainly look forward to trying them. But the insisting on certain processes as being critically necessary and disagreeing with everyone else who has a different viewpoint based on their experience is stupid.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2017, 03:40:34 PM »
I'll try to be careful here.  I have a tendency to make sarcastic comments and derail conversations, not just here but everywhere I go.  I have typed many replies on this board that I deleted before posting because they didn't feel "right".  Welcome to my sociological world problems.   ???

That being said; I have watched the battle around LODO on this forum and chosen to stay out of it.  I haven't looked into the actual processes and do not have time to at this point in my life.  I have seen instances where our moderators have made some defensive/offensive statements and dropped the gauntlet seemingly because they personally disagree with the thread.

I ask that we all pause, and reread our own posts before hitting the 'post" button.  Kind of like reading to the wall in grade school.  Most offense can be avoided by just taking time to think about how what you say will be perceived.

I have thought many times lately "here we go, it's the NB Brew-ha-ha again".  Please don't let hurt feelings tear apart a great resource.  I came here after the NB Brewer forum blew up and most of the members with useful comments migrated elsewhere.

Let's all try to make this a place where differing opinions can be discussed, not fought about.

To the Mods, Thanks for all you do.

Paul
Paul, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying here. I have a tendency to try to use humor to try to defuse conflict, but there have been a lot of posts recently that I have erased halfway through writing - mainly out of concern that it might be taken seriously and escalate issues rather than defuse them.

Personally, I don't have any skin in the game on either side of the Low DO debate. I have been watching the discussion mainly from a distance with a skeptic's mindset (skeptic does not mean disbeliever, mind you). I am curious, and one day hope to test out some of the techniques being shared. Until then I am withholding judgement other than to filter the information I'm hearing through my own experiences to decide what I may want to use/test myself.

I will say, in regards to the Low DO posts, I really appreciate the information that is being exchanged. I appreciate the time and effort that has gone into compiling, testing and sharing this data. Whether I personally adopt some or all of these practices, I think the homebrewing community is better for it. That said, there are still some posts that come across as smug or dogmatic. Those turn me right off, and I just tune out at that point. Posts like that don't really invite discussion, which is what this forum is best for, IMHO.

I don't know how many of you were around back then, but I started on this forum as a relatively new homebrewer right around when Gordon Strong released "Brewing Better Beer". On several occasions he would respond to questions (often from novice brewers) with nothing more than a page number. To me, that came across as "buy my book and read it for your damn self", and that pompous attitude nearly drove me away from both this forum and homebrewing in general. I'm not saying that the Low DO posters have hit this point, but a few posts have come close. I think it's in everyone's best interest for posts to try to promote discussion whenever possible.

And for everyone who has nothing beneficial to add to a conversation, do us all a favor and please keep it to your damn selves.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2017, 03:45:33 PM »
I agree with Narvin and Phil.

As mods, you need to understand that you are held at a higher standard and should behave as such. Have an opinion is great, trolling is not.

I have never been an intentional troll. If I did troll any one here on the forum I feel it was taken out of context. Please understand the fine line mods and myself have to walk here. We want everyone's views to be expressed, but at the same time we simply just can't have opinions being dictated to the point of absolute.

I am offering an olive branch here. But on the other hand, I'm not going to tolerate being discredited every time I want to post. And in the end, that is what has been happening. Not just to me, but to many others. This is not conducive to a healthy environment. There is nothing wrong with disagreements. But there is something wrong with judging other people's beer entirely by their expression of process based on a few claims that are, frankly, insubstantial. Or at the very least, completely over blown.

No one here has to agree with each other's processes. But telling people they are doing in wrong simply because you think you are doing it "right" without even tasting the "offending beer" is just ridiculous.

For instance, I recently posted that a gentle simmering boil was fine to a question posed by another member. I am sure I have made good beer by following this method. But I was told that I was wrong and that my beer was surely crap because I didn't understand the science. And if that isn't exactly what was said that was exactly how I took it.

I am a damn good brewer. And I am sick and tired of being told my methods are insubstantial based on other peoples views. Maybe your beers are superior to mine, I would certainly look forward to trying them. But the insisting on certain processes as being critically necessary and disagreeing with everyone else who has a different viewpoint based on their experience is stupid.
I have tried a lot of beer, including several of yours, and without hesitation I can say your beer is top shelf! If you're doing it wrong it sure doesn't show. Or I just have a bad palate or wrong personal preferences

Offline beersk

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2017, 04:16:32 PM »
Jeeeezuz, what'd I miss? I don't check the forum out for a couple of days and come back to meltdown. What's the matter with you guys? It's only beer, do it the way you want and move on. The low oxygen threads are information threads, not argument starters. Is it STILL June of 2016?