Author Topic: Message to the forum. from me.  (Read 6099 times)

Online dmtaylor

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2017, 04:25:45 PM »
Some of us weren't here in June 2016.

I have tried a lot of beer, including several of yours, and without hesitation I can say your beer is top shelf! If you're doing it wrong it sure doesn't show. Or I just have a bad palate or wrong personal preferences

I should add a disclaimer to my permanent .sig:

     Anyone can make great beer.  Take it from me, a so-called "non-taster".  ;)

Seriously, I test as a borderline "non" taster.  Anyone interested really should do the same, the results might be revelatory to you.  The other side of the coin, however, is that I also think I know what IT is, and I need IT in my lagers, and can be snobbish in this regard.

I wonder if I am viewed as a troll by some.  Too often, even when I think I've provided valuable input, it goes completely ignored.  Ack... whatever.  Realistically, I guess we can't all be part of the in-crowd.  Forget I said anything about this.  ;)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Delo

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2017, 04:30:10 PM »
First, I would like to thank the mods.  I’ve seen other forums and this one is much more civil.  I would imagine it is a crappy job that I sure as hell wouldn’t want to do.
 
I’ve been an active reader on this forum for years. I hardly post because 1) I don’t have time 2) someone else will answer in much more detail than I will 3)I do not have a lot of posts so I assume people will assume I don’t have a lot of experience and wont listen to me anyway 4) Im not really sociable
 
 Anyway, the bickering between over Low oxygen techniques on what seems every topic has definitely been annoying to me.  I wrote a longer post, but I’m not bothering posting it.  I am not looking to insult or blame either side because both sides can share the guilt.   I just want this stuff to end.  It would be a great loss if either side stopped participating here.
 
Low oxygen related, I would like to thank Bryan for sharing his information.  This is why I come to this forum.  It has an incredible amount of knowledgeable brewers in one location and the info shared may improve the way I brew. I decide what information I feel can make my beer better and if you brew differently, I don't care.
Mark

Offline majorvices

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2017, 04:34:43 PM »

Low oxygen related, I would like to thank Bryan for sharing his information.  \


Absolutely! I am not against him or anyone else sharing information. His claims have gotten me to rethink my processes. OTOH I don't want to be personally called out any time I post an opinion.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2017, 04:35:15 PM »
I agree with Narvin and Phil.

As mods, you need to understand that you are held at a higher standard and should behave as such. Have an opinion is great, trolling is not.

I have never been an intentional troll. If I did troll any one here on the forum I feel it was taken out of context. Please understand the fine line mods and myself have to walk here. We want everyone's views to be expressed, but at the same time we simply just can't have opinions being dictated to the point of absolute.

I am offering an olive branch here. But on the other hand, I'm not going to tolerate being discredited every time I want to post. And in the end, that is what has been happening. Not just to me, but to many others. This is not conducive to a healthy environment. There is nothing wrong with disagreements. But there is something wrong with judging other people's beer entirely by their expression of process based on a few claims that are, frankly, insubstantial. Or at the very least, completely over blown.

No one here has to agree with each other's processes. But telling people they are doing in wrong simply because you think you are doing it "right" without even tasting the "offending beer" is just ridiculous.

For instance, I recently posted that a gentle simmering boil was fine to a question posed by another member. I am sure I have made good beer by following this method. But I was told that I was wrong and that my beer was surely crap because I didn't understand the science. And if that isn't exactly what was said that was exactly how I took it.

I am a damn good brewer. And I am sick and tired of being told my methods are insubstantial based on other peoples views. Maybe your beers are superior to mine, I would certainly look forward to trying them. But the insisting on certain processes as being critically necessary and disagreeing with everyone else who has a different viewpoint based on their experience is stupid.
I have tried a lot of beer, including several of yours, and without hesitation I can say your beer is top shelf! If you're doing it wrong it sure doesn't show. Or I just have a bad palate or wrong personal preferences

Thanks! I had no idea you had tried my beer.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2017, 04:46:04 PM »
I don't have a strong position about LODO. The goals of the LODO advocates are not necessarily my goals. I appreciate the ideas they have brought and earnestly believe they are trying to make the best beer they can in the styles they enjoy drinking and want to help others do the same. I think overall since the return of LODO advocates the conversation has been constructive and several members have tried their techniques and report positive results.

That said, I do think the forum, as a whole, has been a less receptive place since their return. I agree with Keith's concerns that a lot of topics suffer a heavy handed response of a paragraph of brewing text with the expectation that this is the single correct answer and intimates that all other responses are wrong. Sometimes an interesting technical conversation arises from it but the original topic question gets lost. That's no problem with everybody in the conversation has a high level of brewing knowledge but many of the posters and lurkers here are not technical brewers or seek a more narrow answer to their question. It pulls most conversations here into a LODO discussion.

I do not mean LODO discussions are bad or mean to vilify LODO. I would feel the same way if people came and drew all conversations into brewing IPA, using eighteenth century English brewing methods, or only preached mixed fermentations. No paradigm or style should monopolize discussion.

Encouraging good discussion is all of our responsibility. None of our participants should be permitted to post in a manner that is oppressive or dismissive of others. Conversations should endeavor to stay on topic, within reason. We've always meandered through topics but if a conversation is veering into a technical area or brand new subject it should be peeled off into a new thread or relegated to an existing thread on that subject. When we respond to a thread, we should always consider whether our response is helpful and responsive to the OP.

I think our mods should moderate towards these ends. Posting bare blocks of texts from brewing manuals or links without context or application to the subject should not be permitted unless requested by another poster. Topics with a limited subject should be cleaned up or closed when they derail unhelpfully. I am generally not a fan of aggressive moderation but we may be at a point where the forum needs some breathing room.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2017, 04:54:42 PM »
I agree with Narvin and Phil.

As mods, you need to understand that you are held at a higher standard and should behave as such. Have an opinion is great, trolling is not.

I have never been an intentional troll. If I did troll any one here on the forum I feel it was taken out of context. Please understand the fine line mods and myself have to walk here. We want everyone's views to be expressed, but at the same time we simply just can't have opinions being dictated to the point of absolute.

I am offering an olive branch here. But on the other hand, I'm not going to tolerate being discredited every time I want to post. And in the end, that is what has been happening. Not just to me, but to many others. This is not conducive to a healthy environment. There is nothing wrong with disagreements. But there is something wrong with judging other people's beer entirely by their expression of process based on a few claims that are, frankly, insubstantial. Or at the very least, completely over blown.

No one here has to agree with each other's processes. But telling people they are doing in wrong simply because you think you are doing it "right" without even tasting the "offending beer" is just ridiculous.

For instance, I recently posted that a gentle simmering boil was fine to a question posed by another member. I am sure I have made good beer by following this method. But I was told that I was wrong and that my beer was surely crap because I didn't understand the science. And if that isn't exactly what was said that was exactly how I took it.

I am a damn good brewer. And I am sick and tired of being told my methods are insubstantial based on other peoples views. Maybe your beers are superior to mine, I would certainly look forward to trying them. But the insisting on certain processes as being critically necessary and disagreeing with everyone else who has a different viewpoint based on their experience is stupid.

I was under the impression a troll is someone that intentionally spouts of nonsense in a deliberate manner to ruin things. For example, if someone came on here and just said "I hate beer and homebrewing should be illegal" or something like that. I've never intentionally been a troll or tried to ruin things.

My beliefs towards all this LODO stuff is well documented. The response I've gotten from the LODO proponents has been to either call me a "amateur hobbyist" or state that my ignorance is not as good as their knowledge. That's where my problem lies with them.
 I've tried their mini mash that was suggested. Didn't like it. I've got over a decade working with oxidative agents in other areas of work and personal life. I now avoid the LODO threads, but when I see it mentioned as gospel in other areas, I will speak up, because that is what this forum is IMO, a place to share ideas and knowledge. Of course we are going to disagree, its how we respond to those disagreements that seems to be the root of problems here.

I lurked for a long time before making an account, and it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2017, 05:03:52 PM »
Jeeeezuz, what'd I miss? I don't check the forum out for a couple of days and come back to meltdown. What's the matter with you guys? It's only beer, do it the way you want and move on. The low oxygen threads are information threads, not argument starters. Is it STILL June of 2016?

I think you answered your own questions. You can never leave us.  8)
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2017, 05:06:50 PM »
it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

It really seems that quite a few people really seem to believe that there are more than 2 members with behavioral issues. Just my observation.
Frank P.

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Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2017, 05:09:19 PM »
it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

It really seems that quite a few people really seem to believe that there are more than 2 members with behavioral issues. Just my observation.
for sure. Different eyes different perspectives.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2017, 05:10:05 PM »
I was under the impression a troll is someone that intentionally spouts of nonsense in a deliberate manner to ruin things. For example, if someone came on here and just said "I hate beer and homebrewing should be illegal" or something like that. I've never intentionally been a troll or tried to ruin things.

My beliefs towards all this LODO stuff is well documented. The response I've gotten from the LODO proponents has been to either call me a "amateur hobbyist" or state that my ignorance is not as good as their knowledge. That's where my problem lies with them.

<snip>

I lurked for a long time before making an account, and it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

You've definitely trolled those two with snide comments and personal attacks. That is not to say their comments are always above the board but neither are yours. You've inserted personal attacks and snideness into meaningful dialogue in ways that makes it difficult to imagine your goal wasn't to derail the conversation on LODO.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2017, 05:12:04 PM »
I was under the impression a troll is someone that intentionally spouts of nonsense in a deliberate manner to ruin things. For example, if someone came on here and just said "I hate beer and homebrewing should be illegal" or something like that. I've never intentionally been a troll or tried to ruin things.

My beliefs towards all this LODO stuff is well documented. The response I've gotten from the LODO proponents has been to either call me a "amateur hobbyist" or state that my ignorance is not as good as their knowledge. That's where my problem lies with them.

<snip>

I lurked for a long time before making an account, and it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

You've definitely trolled those two with snide comments and personal attacks. That is not to say their comments are always above the board but neither are yours. You've inserted personal attacks and snideness into meaningful dialogue in ways that makes it difficult to imagine your goal wasn't to derail the conversation on LODO.

for that, I apologize. I will try harder not to respond to snide comments in kind.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2017, 05:15:28 PM »
Time for us to all get along. I'd love for Bryan and Derek to come in for a group hug. ;)

Offline case thrower

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2017, 05:16:56 PM »
Maybe it's time for a separate area for LODO, just like there is for Wedding Brewing.  To me, it would be an "Enter at your own risk" kind of thing.
Dave C.

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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2017, 05:18:49 PM »
it really seems that the behavioral issues revolve around 2 members, monk and beerery. Just my observation.

It really seems that quite a few people really seem to believe that there are more than 2 members with behavioral issues. Just my observation.
for sure. Different eyes different perspectives.

And that's why the moderators need to have a wider perspective.

I honestly think the conversation from Bryan's side has improved incredibly and the conversation from the other side has come down.

Bryan had a long way to come from his first posts, obviously, but I give him a lot of credit for being able to largely change his tone.

Unfortunately, all these threads seem to wind up as arguments between the same three or four people anyway.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline Delo

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Re: Message to the forum. from me.
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2017, 05:24:45 PM »

Low oxygen related, I would like to thank Bryan for sharing his information.  \


Absolutely! I am not against him or anyone else sharing information. His claims have gotten me to rethink my processes. OTOH I don't want to be personally called out any time I post an opinion.

This wasnt meant as a diss to you. It is what it is. Just a thanks. I have not problem with anyone(well maybe your opinion of New Jersey). I don’t blame either side for getting defensive(mod or not). Both sides had trolling and some of the back and forth comments have crossed lines on both sides.
Mark