Author Topic: Trub in starter  (Read 1812 times)

Offline Pi

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Trub in starter
« on: February 03, 2017, 09:18:28 PM »
After a whirlpool I like to chill and transfer to a carboy. I let this settle for about an hour then rack to a fermentation vessle leaving behind a couple quarts od trub laden (hot break?). can i use this for starter wort?
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Offline TeeDubb

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 10:47:37 PM »
I can't answer your question confidently because I've never tried it. I imagine that the more trub you have as a percentage of the wort mass, the less fermentable sugar you have and at some point it you may be below the desired OG for the starter.   

A side comment - I used to worry about trub management in my beer and did things like you mention where the wort is allowed to sit, or you do a double transfer.  After reading some of the experiments on the brulosophy site, I decided not to worry about it.  Now I just let some of the trub (maybe 50%) transfer right into the fermenter and it actually seems to help kick off fermentation faster.  The beer seems to turn out the same or better from a flavor perspective. It's one less step and thing to clean and you get a sightly better yield.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

Offline The Beerery

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Trub in starter
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 11:20:03 PM »
I can't answer your question confidently because I've never tried it. I imagine that the more trub you have as a percentage of the wort mass, the less fermentable sugar you have and at some point it you may be below the desired OG for the starter.   

A side comment - I used to worry about trub management in my beer and did things like you mention where the wort is allowed to sit, or you do a double transfer.  After reading some of the experiments on the brulosophy site, I decided not to worry about it.  Now I just let some of the trub (maybe 50%) transfer right into the fermenter and it actually seems to help kick off fermentation faster.  The beer seems to turn out the same or better from a flavor perspective. It's one less step and thing to clean and you get a sightly better yield.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

Along with the FAN in all the trub is the fats and lipids which will cause oxidation. I'm sure they cover it all in those exbeeriments though.

I wouldn't probably worry about it in a starter, but I never let hot break and cold break into my fermenting wort.  But I step mash, use sauergut and use a low pH so I get all the FAN and zinc I need in the wort.  But then again I'm an oddity in this department.


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« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:26:08 PM by The Beerery »

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 11:42:37 PM »
I have always tried to reduce the amount of ANY break going into my fermenters. Mainly for repitching purposes and keeping the wort as clear as possible.

But now after learning of potential issues with residual lipids in trub possibly leading to early oxidation effects I will be more likely than ever to minimize any break getting into the fermenting wort.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2017, 11:55:29 PM »
I have always tried to reduce the amount of ANY break going into my fermenters. Mainly for repitching purposes and keeping the wort as clear as possible.

But now after learning of potential issues with residual lipids in trub possibly leading to early oxidation effects I will be more likely than ever to minimize any break getting into the fermenting wort.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/




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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2017, 12:00:52 AM »
I have always tried to reduce the amount of ANY break going into my fermenters. Mainly for repitching purposes and keeping the wort as clear as possible.

But now after learning of potential issues with residual lipids in trub possibly leading to early oxidation effects I will be more likely than ever to minimize any break getting into the fermenting wort.


Yeah, my experience, too. Gonna minimize it now for even more and  better reasons.
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Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 12:45:24 AM »
After a whirlpool I like to chill and transfer to a carboy. I let this settle for about an hour then rack to a fermentation vessle leaving behind a couple quarts od trub laden (hot break?). can i use this for starter wort?

unless you have a means to can it and make sure its sterile, I wouldn't go with this. DME is very cheap.

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 12:48:12 AM »
that being said, despite trub containing everything but actual poison, somehow people make delicious award winning beer without giving too much thought into how much trub they let get into the fermenter.

Offline tommymorris

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Trub in starter
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2017, 02:48:22 AM »
I have never held back any break from the fermenter. At the end of the boil I chill and then pour everything in the kettle straight into the fermenter.

Not sure about oxidation. I have never noticed it. I do drink my beer pretty fast 4-6 weeks and my 2.5 gallon kegs are empty.

I save yeast slurry for 2-3 batches. The slurry does have plenty of muck in it besides yeast but repitches take off like lighting and the beer tastes fine.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 02:02:35 PM by alestateyall »

Offline ultravista

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2017, 03:14:44 AM »
Trub in Kettle ...

I drain everything from the kettle into the fermenter with no bad effects. The ity-bity amount of trub in a starter is immaterial.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 04:03:10 AM by ultravista »

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2017, 03:56:52 AM »
While I won't argue as folks can do whatever they please, I want to point out oxidation. I will say this.
“Methods for such optimization are covered in, for example, in the references by Bamforth (1999) and Fix (1998). Following C. D. Dalgliesch (1977), it is useful to characterize staling in terms of three basic stages:

• Stage A is the period of stable, “brewery-fresh” flavor.

• Stage B is a transition period in which a multitude of new flavor sensations can be detected.

• Stage C products are the classic flavor tones involved in beer staling.”

He goes on to list an overview of the stages, the highlights of them being:

“Stage A beer is pristine in flavor. During stage B, Dalgliesch described a decline in hop aroma, a decline in hop bitterness,an increase in “ribes aroma” (or sometimes “catty” flavor), and an increase in sweet, toffee-like, or caramel tones. The terms ribes (or currant) and catty are widely used in the United Kingdom and Scandinavia to recall overripe or spoiled fruit or vegetables. Some tasters cite a “black currant” tone (Hardwick, 1978). In truth, these terms describe a wide spectrum of negative flavors developed when beer is in stage B. Toffee or caramel flavors can come from many sources, but those associated with staling will invariably have unattractive cloying notes. These effects are enhanced by residual diacetyl and also by excess heat treatment of wort. Finally, stage C products range from papery or leathery to sherry- or vinegar-like notes.”

While I agree brewers rarely see the last one, but it's the first one everyone thinks about when they think oxidation. Fading hop aromas and flavors, beers losing flavor, or adding a caramel like flavor. Those are all oxidation as well.  Oxidation can come from many sources, so adding trub can prematurely accelerate it. I am not going to tell you you need to change your practices, just getting the data out there.


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Offline majorvices

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2017, 10:21:09 AM »
There is nothing wrong with a little trub in the starter getting into your fermentor. If you feel the need to remove it go for it. But you are simply not going to be able to taste the difference.

I'm not about to sidetrack this thread into a trub discussion but there is as many studies saying it doesn't matter as there are that it does. I have the ability to dump it from my conicals so I dump some, but certainly not all.

For a professional brewery it would take DAYS for all the trub to settle out in the conical even with Brew Tan B. So there is no reason to sweat over a small amount.

Offline narvin

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2017, 12:26:10 PM »
For a small starter, it's unlikely to matter, especially if you decant.  In full batches, I prefer my beer now that I use a hop stopper that leaves hot break and hop sludge behind.  Cold break is hard to tell... I wouldn't worry about it, though it might make a small difference for very light lagers to some.
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Offline The Beerery

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Trub in starter
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2017, 01:12:50 PM »

I'm not about to sidetrack this thread into a trub discussion but there is as many studies saying it doesn't matter as there are that it does. I have the ability to dump it from my conicals so I dump some, but certainly not all.

For a professional brewery it would take DAYS for all the trub to settle out in the conical even with Brew Tan B. So there is no reason to sweat over a small amount.

But this thread IS about trub.  It's literally in the title. On a serious note I would love to see the studies you reference for it. I am always up for reading some good scientific studies. 

I don't know that brewtan b is going to help break settle any faster( maybe it does?),  but there are there many things a professional brewery can do with specialized equipment that we as homebrewers can't.
Cheers.



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« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 01:18:00 PM by The Beerery »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Trub in starter
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2017, 01:31:34 PM »
The answer to the original question is yes, you CAN use the leftovers for a starter. Is it a best practice? I would say no.

It makes me curious though. Which brew would this starter be for? How long until you'd inoculate that starter, and what would you do with it until then?