[greatplainsbrewer]

I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks

[HoosierBrew]

I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks

Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).

[curtdogg]

I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks

Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).

So the "yellow" profile would be a better choice?

[HoosierBrew]

I realize that Galaxy isn't a new hop but this will be my first pale ale with Galaxy hops.  I usually get pretty close to the Pale Ale profile in BruunWater when I make APA's but I did an APA last year using mostly Citra that seemed a little harsh.  I'm wondering if I dial back the sulfates quite a bit if it won't be better with the fruitier hops. By "dialed back" I mean 125 sulfate/102 chloride.  Don't get me wrong- for my more "traditional" Centennial, CTZ, Cascade types of pale ales I really like the Pale Ale water profile.  Just wondering if some of the fruitier hops wouldn't benefit from a more balanced sulfate/chloride ratio.

I realize that to each his own-why else homebrew?- but I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this path and is willing to share?

Thanks

Well, Martin (Mr Brunwater) says to try to avoid 100+ ppm sulfate and chloride in the same beer because it can produce a harsh, minerally tasting beer. So that may explain the harshness you're getting. I don't think Citra hops are harsh in and of themselves. So, assuming you're brewing non NEIPA type beers like I do, I'd back the chloride down to 50-60ppm. I used to use the pale ale profile 300 ppm sulfate but I've been backing the sulfate down recently to around 160 ppm and like the results. There's one brewer's $0.02 for ya! Good luck.



Edit -  Since I brought up the NEIPAs, the chloride and sulfate are basically inverted there, ie., well under 100ppm sulfate and over 100ppm chloride (aside from use of up to 20% flaked grains).

So the "yellow" profile would be a better choice?

Not necessarily - the profile you use is a preference thing. I'm just saying that it's best to keep chloride levels well under 100 ppm when you use sulfate levels over 100ppm, or vice versa. Overmineralized beer sucks - been there, done it.

[curtdogg]

Roger

[kramerog]

Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.

[HoosierBrew]

Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.

Maybe so. Those are more chloride heavy. I can't speak as a NEIPA expert by any means, but I do trust Martin's advice and have seen the results in sulfate heavy beers  with too much chloride. All in all, I'd rather give water advice to someone on the conservative end and let them run with it.

[kramerog]

Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.

Maybe so. Those are more chloride heavy. I can't speak as a NEIPA expert by any means, but I do trust Martin's advice and have seen the results in sulfate heavy beers  with too much chloride. All in all, I'd rather give water advice to someone on the conservative end and let them run with it.

Perhaps our difference viewpoints might be explained by the starting water.  Specifically, a low mineral water - moderate alkalinity is OK - doesn't produce a beer that has unpleasant mineralogy with high sulfate and chloride but a high mineral one does?

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[mabrungard]

Over 100 ppm sulfate and chloride doesn't seem to be an issue in New England IPAs.  Check Scott Janish's blog for more info.

I have to disagree. NEIPA waters that I've seen, use high chloride and modest sulfate. On the order of 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate seems to work well in the style and is not minerally.

There is latitude in those values and you probably won't have a minerally flavor until sulfate is near 300 and chloride is near 150 ppm.

[greatplainsbrewer]

I won't be brewing for a few days but this is what I have on Bruunwater right now.

Calcium  149
Mg           5
Na           4
Sulfate     80
Chloride    153

Mash pH is projected to be 5.38.  Again this isn't a NEIPA, its a 1.052 APA with an all Galaxy hop schedule.  FWH, 10, 5, 0, Dry

[curtdogg]

Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?
Chloride for dark beers,
Sulfate for yellow beers?

[dilluh98]

I won't be brewing for a few days but this is what I have on Bruunwater right now.

Calcium  149
Mg           5
Na           4
Sulfate     80
Chloride    153

Mash pH is projected to be 5.38.  Again this isn't a NEIPA, its a 1.052 APA with an all Galaxy hop schedule.  FWH, 10, 5, 0, Dry

I think your salts look good. You may want to consider dropping the mash pH a bit for an APA, say 5.2-5.3. It'll make an APA "pop" a bit more.

[mabrungard]

Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?

No.  NEIPA is a totally different take on water. It relies on a very full malt perception with a huge amount of juicy hops to mesh with the malt.

[curtdogg]

Shouldn't the sulfate be equal too or higher than the chloride for hop forward beers?

No.  NEIPA is a totally different take on water. It relies on a very full malt perception with a huge amount of juicy hops to mesh with the malt.

Martin, somehow NEIPA got into the conversation along the line.
The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA? sorry if its me and im just not getting it.
Sulfate 80
Chloride 153

[stpug]

The op says he is NOT brewing an NEIPA. So my question was shouldn't the sulfate and chloride be opposite for a non NEIPA?
Sulfate 80
Chloride 153

Most typically, yes, you are correct.  Flip those quantities and the OP has good levels from which to work.  Good starting point for IPA/APA styles.