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Author Topic: pH probes  (Read 4455 times)

Offline jimmykx250

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 03:29:26 am »
So when do you guys take your ph readings? If its at the 15 min mark in the mash do you draw a sample and let it cool before reading with your meter? I noticed the thermoworks model im looking at says it has temperature compensation built in.
The temp compensation is to accommodate the different ph at different temps and not to adjust the reading to what it would be at room temp.

Thanks for all that good info!

I pull a small sample at 10 minutes and put it in the freezer for about 10 minutes to test.

Thanks Steve
Any opinions on the thermowoks stuff? Thermometers are stellar.

I cannot state for Thermoworks but as far as temperature goes:

Most pH electrodes are made of General Purpose (GP) glass. The rule of thumb for GP glass is
At 25 oC expect 1-2 years
At 50 oC expect 6 month to 1 year
At 75 oC expect 3-6 months
At 100 oC expect less than 1 month.

The guidelines are for probes in continuous use. I would expect a longer time for probes that are used intermittently.

It would be recommended to cool samples to less than 140 oF (60 oC). If it is planned to measure at a higher temperature then a pH electrode with high temperature (HT) glass would be recommended. The HT glass has a higher resistance at 25 oC than GP glass. As the temperature increases then resistance decreases. The HT glass resistance at high temperature approaches that of GP glass at an ambient temperature.

The temperature compensation is used for voltage response as according to the Nernst equation for membrane potentials.  For a meter with manual temperature compensation it is important to adjust the calibration trimmer to match the value on the bottle at a specific temperature. The value on the bottle is the actual pH of that solution at a given temperature. For example pH 7.01 and 4.01 at 25oC.
Jimmykx250

Offline pfabsits

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 01:50:49 pm »
Phewwww. That is a ton of good information there. Thanks for sharing.

In your first post with steps 1-4, can this be performed with any pH probe or just Hanna Instrument ones?

The offset check (pH 7.01) will work with any meter with a BNC connector. Once the connector is shorted then a o mV signal is being sent to the meter.

Many meters, including testers, that have automatic calibration have the ability to clear the calibration data that has been stored.  A meter with a default calibration will be set to 0 mV = pH 7.01 and +178 mV = pH 4.01. From a default calibration it is then possible to determine both offset and slope.

The original post was for a meter that was calibrated manually. Since it has a BNC connector it was at least possible to check the offset. The slope would be difficult to check since a +178 mV signal from a simulator would have to be driven to the meter to adjust the pH 4 trimmer. Since more than likely a simulator is not available that the slope check was left out.

The offset is very helpful since a high offset value is an indicator that the probe needs to be cleaned. 

If you have a meter with auto calibration and it can be cleared to a default then knowing the readings in buffers will allow to calculate both offset and slope.

Feel free to message me and I can walk you through how perform the calculation. It is based on the Nernst equation in which theoretically a pH of 7.01 is 0 mV and each pH unit generate 59.16 mV at 25 oC. Acids the pH increases positive and bases the increase is negative. A pH electrode with 100% slope will generate +59 mV in pH 6 while in pH 5 will generate +118 mV.  It would be recommended to make sure that the probe has better than 90% slope or 54 mV/pH.

For example, on default calibration my pH probe reads pH 7.25 in pH 7.01 buffer and pH 4.5 in in pH 4.01 buffer.
*pH 7.25 is 1/4 pH unit away on the base side so the voltage being generated is -15 mV. Well within +/-30 mV for an offset.

* pH 4.5 is 2.5 pH units away from pH 7.00 which in mV that would equal 59 * 2.5 = 147.5 mV. But since the offset is -15 mV then the mV difference is 147.5 - (-15) = 162.5 mV. 162.5/178 x 100 = 91.3% slope.  The slope is above 90%.

* If in the same example the pH meter read pH 6.75 in pH 7 for a default cal then the voltage would be +15 mV (more H+ = increase in + voltage). The slope would be 147.5 - 15 mV = 132.5 mV. 132.5/178 x 100 = 74.4% slope. Most meters will not calibrate less than 85% slope but if it did then you definitely should not use the probe since the slope is too low.

The numbers above are approximate since Nernst dictates 59.16 mV/pH at 25 oC. I have rounded to 59 for convenience. Either way, knowing how to approximate the offset and slope will help you understand the health of the pH electrode. To achieve an accuracy >0.1 pH it is critical to know.

The accuracy statement of the meters stated by the manufacturers is the meter itself and not the system which includes the probe. I can achieve a higher accuracy from a $50 tester than from a $600-1K benchtop if the probe of the tester has a good offset/slope and the benchtop does not.

General rule:
New pH electrodes: +/- 10 mV offset and 95-105% slope
User tolerance: +/- 30 mV offset and slope greater than 90%
Meter limits: +/- 60 mV offset and slope greater than 85%

It is possible to calibrate a probe that is outside the limits of use since the window for calibration is pretty wide. At that point it is like throwing darts and were hitting the dart board. To hit a triple 20 you want to be well within the user tolerance range.
One of the avid home brewers that work for Hanna Instruments

Offline mabrungard

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 04:40:50 pm »
Another way to look at the great info from pfabsits is that when you've calibrated your meter and then disconnect the probe and perform the shorting technique mentioned above, the meter should read between 6.5 and 7.5.

I just checked my meter and my shorted reading was 6.57, so I'm getting near the end of that probe's life. Not too bad for almost 5 yrs of use. 
Martin B
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Offline narcout

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 10:16:51 am »
I just checked my meter and my shorted reading was 6.57, so I'm getting near the end of that probe's life. Not too bad for almost 5 yrs of use.

Mine bounced around between 0.75 and 4.75, then seemed to settle near 3.8, but it's been almost two weeks since I last calibrated it, and it has never held calibration between uses.

Cool trick though, thanks to pfabsits for all the info.
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline narcout

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2017, 07:19:45 pm »
Man, I am loving my new Extech 110.  I've only just received it, but so far it is much easier and faster to use than my MW101.

Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2017, 07:29:13 am »
I have another ph probe question, for the meters with external probes (corded) can it be replaced with one from a different company? (As long as they have the same connections)   My initial research says no, but can't see why not.

Offline JT

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2017, 01:06:36 pm »
I have another ph probe question, for the meters with external probes (corded) can it be replaced with one from a different company? (As long as they have the same connections)   My initial research says no, but can't see why not.
From what I've read on this, it really depends on the connector type.  My bnc connected MW102 should take any bnc probe.  I wouldn't get a probe that has a temp sensor in it because the MW102 has a separate probe to measure temp. 

Edit: link containing good info
https://www.coleparmer.com/tech-article/ph-electrode-selection-guide

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2017, 09:23:21 am »
Any pH probe with either BNC or DIN connectors can be replaced with any other manufacturer's BNC or DIN equipped probes. They are universal.

You can get my compilation of pH meter and probe advice on the Bru'n Water Facebook page linked below. You'll have to scroll through a bunch of other useful brewing related information to get to that pH info, but it should be worth your time.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

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Offline pfabsits

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 08:34:17 am »
Any pH probe with either BNC or DIN connectors can be replaced with any other manufacturer's BNC or DIN equipped probes. They are universal.

You can get my compilation of pH meter and probe advice on the Bru'n Water Facebook page linked below. You'll have to scroll through a bunch of other useful brewing related information to get to that pH info, but it should be worth your time.

The BNC connector is universal but the DIN most likely will not be.

For Hanna Instruments pH/Temperature probes, the current selection with DIN connectors, are proprietary. In the wiring are two wires for powering an amplifier circuit built in the probe. The amplifier takes the voltage produced by the pH half cells and allows for more current to flow to the meter. The advantage of an amplified circuit is reduce noise from (pumps, motors, lamps, etc) and humidity. We include the amplifier with sensors that have a built-in thermistor temperature sensor since the noise from the temperature measuring circuit can interfere with the pH measurement.

We have some probes with DIN connectors that were used in the past without temperature or amplifier. They are not used by any meter that we currently produce. I think they are a left over from a European standard that was used in the past. I am not aware of any current manufactures that they would be compatible with. They are not the same DIN as the ones used by Hach (digital signal), Thermo, WTW, etc.

On a side note: It was the amplifier circuit that made pH measurement possible. Arnold Beckman used a vacuum tube type amplifier to build the first pH meter for his friend Glen Joseph with the California Citrus Growers Assoc. At one time Arnold Beckman worked for Tellabs (Ma Bell) in which it was important to amplify the telephone phone signal. Below is a link to an ACS publication about Arnold Beckman and the pH meter.


https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/beckman/beckman-ph-meter-commemorative-booklet.pdf
One of the avid home brewers that work for Hanna Instruments

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 10:45:26 am »
Is there a particular brand of probe the seems to hold up the best? Or is better built than others? I wasn't impressed with a replacement probe from ThermoWorks, seemed pretty cheesy compared to the original.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 02:35:01 pm »
Brand?  I'm not sure that is truly the best metric. Construction may be a better objective. In the wastewater industry, double-junction probes are highly regarded to provide the best resistance to fouling and providing longer service. I suggest that gel electrolyte may provide better longevity for the hobbyist also. 
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

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narvin

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Re: pH probes
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 02:58:28 pm »
After a few years I replaced the original probe with the same one from Milwaukee (SE220), haven't had any complaints.  It's a double junction gel electrolyte BNC probe for about $40.