Author Topic: The Big D (Diacetyl) - Contamination or Fermentation Issue?  (Read 1438 times)

Offline denny

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Re: The Big D (Diacetyl) - Contamination or Fermentation Issue?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 06:23:36 PM »
It can be fully attenuated but still not done up taking things like diacetyl. My bet is now on  unfinished rather than contamination.

Actually, Jim, according to Palmer the cleanup phase does and should take place while there are fermentables, not at the end of fermentation.
I wouldn't doubt Palmer. It's just that I've seen beer improve after final gravity is reached. It must have been for some other reason then. But in this particular case, I am not seeing any evidence that the beer was actually done.

Which is why I mentioned it was from him....NOBODY would believe it if it was from me!  :)

"Yeast have 3 phases in their life cycle: Adaptation, High Growth, and Stationary. (See Yeast by CW and Jamil) They do not have a maturation phase where they clean up byproducts. Adaptation phase is where they take in oxygen and build sterols and other lipids, assess the sugar composition and build enzymes, etc. Once those activities are done, they start the High Growth Phase, eating and reproducing. The number of cell divisions is limited by their lipid reserves they made during Adaptation. These reserves are shared with each daughter cell. When those lipid reserves are exhausted, the cell stops reproducing. In addition, when those reserves are exhausted, the cell is old and cannot eat or excrete waste efficiently across it’s cell membrane. A yeast cell typically can reproduce about 4 times during a typical fermentation, after that it is old and tired and tends to enter Stationary phase where it shuts down most of its metabolism and flocculates, waiting for the next batch of aerated wort. Stationary phase is essentially an inactivity phase, resting on the bottom.

Like I said, no conditioning phase as far as the yeast are concerned. Byproducts can be consumed at any point during the high growth phase, but they are a lower energy source than sugar, so guess what? Byproducts are not a biological priority. The brewer therefore needs to plan his pitching rate and fermentation conditions such that the yeast run out of fermentable wort sugar before their lipid reserves are exhausted and they go into stationary phase. Now you have a majority of vigorous yeast that have only undergone 2 reproductions (for example), the sugar is gone, and they are still hungry, so they turn to acetaldehyde and diacetyl as alternate energy sources and maturate the beer. You can help this by doing a diacetyl rest by raising the temperature a few degrees after the first half of fermentation, to keep the yeast active and eating. Where in the fermentation? after the first half, 2/3 to 3/4, when most of the attenuation has occured and raising the temperature is not going to cause rampant growth and the off-flavors associated with it.

Today, we have closed stainless steel tanks which allow us to prevent oxidation, pull the yeast, and control the temperature. This plus our understanding of the yeast cycle above changes the way we ferment lagers, so now lager beer fermentation is started cooler to control yeast growth and allowed or controlled to rise during fermentation to the diacetyl rest, such that ALL of the fermentation and maturation is complete before the beer is cooled to lagering temperature. The effect of temperature at this stage is strictly physical, increasing the strength of hydrogen bonds to coagulate beer haze and help it settle out. The yeast are still susceptible to temperature shock and lipid excretion, so the cooling to lager temperature 35-38F still has to be slow, i.e. 5F per day.

Please note that this behavior and fermentation technique is applicable to ALL beers, not just lager beer."
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: The Big D (Diacetyl) - Contamination or Fermentation Issue?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 06:33:46 PM »
I don't doubt any of that. I have found diacetyl in my final gravity samples (since switching to my 1L oxygenated starter procedure about 2 years ago) only once. It was a lager. I found it by warming the gravity sample. Two beers, one had it one did not. I left them about 4 more days at my final temp 68f. I took another sample. Gravity had not changed, at least not that I could detect visually with my hydrometer. But the diacetyl was gone. I'm not convinced why, just that it happened. I always thought the yeast continued doing things after FG, but no doubt that's wrong. I just don't know why I've seen diacetyl disappear after fg.

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Re: The Big D (Diacetyl) - Contamination or Fermentation Issue?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2017, 06:59:58 PM »
It can be fully attenuated but still not done up taking things like diacetyl. My bet is now on  unfinished rather than contamination.

Actually, Jim, according to Palmer the cleanup phase does and should take place while there are fermentables, not at the end of fermentation.
I wouldn't doubt Palmer. It's just that I've seen beer improve after final gravity is reached. It must have been for some other reason then. But in this particular case, I am not seeing any evidence that the beer was actually done.

Which is why I mentioned it was from him....NOBODY would believe it if it was from me!  :)

"Yeast have 3 phases in their life cycle: Adaptation, High Growth, and Stationary. (See Yeast by CW and Jamil) They do not have a maturation phase where they clean up byproducts. Adaptation phase is where they take in oxygen and build sterols and other lipids, assess the sugar composition and build enzymes, etc. Once those activities are done, they start the High Growth Phase, eating and reproducing. The number of cell divisions is limited by their lipid reserves they made during Adaptation. These reserves are shared with each daughter cell. When those lipid reserves are exhausted, the cell stops reproducing. In addition, when those reserves are exhausted, the cell is old and cannot eat or excrete waste efficiently across it’s cell membrane. A yeast cell typically can reproduce about 4 times during a typical fermentation, after that it is old and tired and tends to enter Stationary phase where it shuts down most of its metabolism and flocculates, waiting for the next batch of aerated wort. Stationary phase is essentially an inactivity phase, resting on the bottom.

Like I said, no conditioning phase as far as the yeast are concerned. Byproducts can be consumed at any point during the high growth phase, but they are a lower energy source than sugar, so guess what? Byproducts are not a biological priority. The brewer therefore needs to plan his pitching rate and fermentation conditions such that the yeast run out of fermentable wort sugar before their lipid reserves are exhausted and they go into stationary phase. Now you have a majority of vigorous yeast that have only undergone 2 reproductions (for example), the sugar is gone, and they are still hungry, so they turn to acetaldehyde and diacetyl as alternate energy sources and maturate the beer. You can help this by doing a diacetyl rest by raising the temperature a few degrees after the first half of fermentation, to keep the yeast active and eating. Where in the fermentation? after the first half, 2/3 to 3/4, when most of the attenuation has occured and raising the temperature is not going to cause rampant growth and the off-flavors associated with it.

Today, we have closed stainless steel tanks which allow us to prevent oxidation, pull the yeast, and control the temperature. This plus our understanding of the yeast cycle above changes the way we ferment lagers, so now lager beer fermentation is started cooler to control yeast growth and allowed or controlled to rise during fermentation to the diacetyl rest, such that ALL of the fermentation and maturation is complete before the beer is cooled to lagering temperature. The effect of temperature at this stage is strictly physical, increasing the strength of hydrogen bonds to coagulate beer haze and help it settle out. The yeast are still susceptible to temperature shock and lipid excretion, so the cooling to lager temperature 35-38F still has to be slow, i.e. 5F per day.

Please note that this behavior and fermentation technique is applicable to ALL beers, not just lager beer."

I agree with every part except rise to the diacetly rest... Great info for folks though.