[bayareabrewer]

yeah, this feels like groundhog day. I'll stop.

[Big Monk]

but all your assumptions are self serving.

Someone does low DO brewing but stirs their mash, uses copper of doesn't use a mash cap or doesn't verify low DO but still claims to benefit, you congratulate them and pat yourselves on the back. When Denny experiments with antioxidants and sees no benefit, its because he didn't follow every rule. Your entire approach is going to lead you to a self serving conclusion.

This is what is so frustrating and why I think you and I in particular butt heads. Having the opinion you state above disregards all the material we have put out, all the sources we site, all the great interactions and help we give on this forum and our own, etc.

This says you are so opposed to what we are saying that you are willfully disregarding a large volume of material that we have put out.

Just to address the explicitly stated concerns you raise above:

1.) We have never said don't stir. YOU HAVE TO STIR the mash to ensure mixing of the strike water and grain. Should you whip it with an egg beater? No.

2.) People are having great results and are keeping copper. Brewtan B seems to be doing its job on that front.

3.) Many people have purchase meters and are using sulfite test kits and strips. Verification is simpler than most people assume.

Please note we have commented on all of this at our site. Have you read any of our material? Even a cursory glance at our blog would have shot down your concerns.

As far as Denny's experiments, even he has admitted that he didn't utilize any other form of reduction prior to using the antioxidants. They are most effective when you start with as close to 0 DO as you can. His trials live outside of this conversation though. He was never testing Low Oxygen when he did them. That's not a dig, it's a reality.

The self serving thing is curious. By self serving do you mean put a bunch of information in a form that is easily digestible to brewers in he hopes they will use it to have success in a method you are passionate about?

If yes, then we are definitely self serving. We want people to succeed because we want people to make great beer. Not because it benefits us, but because it benefits them. We are into helping people.

[dannyjed]

I have a question. I got my score sheets back from Indy and it states that my American Barleywine got second place, but on the winner's online page it has me down as third place. So, which one is it or do I have to wait for the ribbon

I would trust the winners page since the results get verified by the AHA. Error are more frequent in the cover sheet. But, I'd recommend emailing John Moorhead and asking about the discrepancy. Either way, congrats on advancing!

Thanks for directing me to email John. As it turns out, the winner's page was wrong (now corrected) and I actually got a 2nd place. I guess I'm not the only one who likes my HiDO Barleywine.

[ynotbrusum]

I'm not saying anything about my Low O2 approach. I didn't judge my beer.  Just that I implemented Low O2 process.  Maybe it won't hold up for the next round, but if a bunch do,does it mean nothing?

[udubdawg]

 
 NHC chat is pretty much the only thing I come back here for at this point.  Please don't ruin THAT too.

[ynotbrusum]

 NHC chat is pretty much the only thing I come back here for at this point.  Please don't ruin THAT too.

Good luck to all who advanced.  It really is about the beer and I apologize for any derailing that occurred.  Looking forward to judging and Club Night.

[Badgerhead]

 NHC chat is pretty much the only thing I come back here for at this point.  Please don't ruin THAT too.

Indeed, sir.

On that note, I saw the email yesterday that online post-competition packages have been pushed to May 3rd.  Was glad they sent an update, I have been checking obsessively since I am still waiting on my score sheets from San Diego.  I've never advanced before (this was only my second year entering) and I want to see all the info on what happens next.  Thankfully I didn't drink all of my Best Bitter yet - it never occurred to me that it might actually move forward and I wasn't paying attention to how much I had left.

[brewinhard]

 NHC chat is pretty much the only thing I come back here for at this point.  Please don't ruin THAT too.

Indeed, sir.

On that note, I saw the email yesterday that online post-competition packages have been pushed to May 3rd.  Was glad they sent an update, I have been checking obsessively since I am still waiting on my score sheets from San Diego.  I've never advanced before (this was only my second year entering) and I want to see all the info on what happens next.  Thankfully I didn't drink all of my Best Bitter yet - it never occurred to me that it might actually move forward and I wasn't paying attention to how much I had left.

Congrats!  Brew that sucka up again and compare your new batch with the older one to see which is better for entering. Can only increase your chances.

[blair.streit]

After almost 3 years of fumbling around in the dark I figured it was time to enter a comp and get some unbiased feedback. I entered 3 beers into Austin and just got my scores in the mail yesterday:

• Altbier(7B) - 35.5; first time I brewed this one
• Marzen (6A) - 38; This is the one I really want to nail
• Baltic Porter(9C) - 40; I've brewed this one a couple of times and liked it; Got kicked in mini-BOS

I was very pleased with the results and feel like I received some good, actionable feedback on the Alt and the Baltic Porter.

On the Marzen, I'd like some help from the group to interpret the results and one aspect in particular that confused me. In short, it appears that both judges detected some banana in the aroma that was not noted in the flavor or anywhere else. It was marked under esters, but I'm not 100% sure if I was actually dinged for that or not. The guidelines on aroma state, "Moderate intensity aroma of German malt, typically rich, bready, somewhat toasty, with light bread crust notes." I see a lot of reviews of commercial Marzen stating "banana bread" as an aroma descriptor.

So, before sharing the recipe or anything else, I'm curious about your thoughts on the banana just from this feeedback? Is this where I should focus, or based on the details below do you feel I'm over-emphasizing this one bit of the feedback?

Here's the detailed breakdown of the scoresheets in case it's helpful:

Judge1 - 39
Aroma - 9/12; Malt - Bready, Hops - Floral; Esters - Banana
Appearance - 3/3; Persistent ivory head on burnished copper
Flavor -   15/20; Malt - Bready, Hops - Very slight Spicy (no esters/other/balance marked)
Mouthfeel -   5/5; Crisp, dry finish
Overall - 7/10; "Drink a pint"; Comment - Flavorful, easy drinking and very well-brewed

Judge2 - 37
Aroma - 7/12; Malt - Bready, Hops - Floral/Spicy; Esters - Banana/Fruity; Comment - Strong banana at first, going to spiciness
Appearance - 3/3; Cream head on copper   
Flavor - 15/20; Malt - Bready, Hops - Spicy (no esters/other/balance marked); Even balance
Mouthfeel - 4/5;
Overall -   8/10; 4/5 on all intangibles; "Drink a pint"

Thanks!

[HoosierBrew]

I see a lot of reviews of commercial Marzen stating "banana bread" as an aroma descriptor.

First off, congrats on the good scores! But are you sure you aren't thinking of hefeweizen's description as banana bread? Banana esters shouldn't ever be in a Marzen IMO. Descriptions as bready - yes, banana bread -no. What was your temp schedule on your Marzen, out of curiosity? Yeast strain? Regardless, sounds like a cooler ferment schedule would clean up the esters.

[blair.streit]

...are you sure you aren't thinking of hefeweizen's description as banana bread? Banana esters shouldn't ever be in a Marzen IMO. Descriptions as bready - yes, banana bread -no.

Yeah I can't find any of the references I'm thinking of now, and I get your point. There's a part of my brain that associates "sweet/rich bread" with "banana bread" even though they're not the same (think King's Hawaiian rolls).

On that note I'm also trying to wrap my head around how banana esters are present in the aroma but not in the flavor. Does this potentially mean they're just there in low amounts?

What was your temp schedule on your Marzen, out of curiosity? Yeast strain? Regardless, sounds like a cooler ferment schedule would clean up the esters.

Pitched WLP833 at 47F and let it rise to 50 where I held it for a week before a slow rise to finish off / clean up.



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[HoosierBrew]

Yeah, your temp schedule is obviously plenty cool. And 833 is plenty clean IME. Do you use your tap water? Use campden? Because chlorophenols formed from water that wasn't dechlorinated can cause a phenolic/maybe banana type character. As can a low level infection for that matter. Doesn't sound yeast related, assuming you pitched plenty and the yeast weren't overly stressed from underpitching.

[santoch]

banana is isoamyl acetate, an ester.  chlorine in the water forms chlorophenols, which are obviously phenolic.
The clove phenolic in weizenbier is from 4-vinyl guaiacol.
http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard/4-vinyl-guaiacol

Check out that site for some more off flavor descriptions:
http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard

Their kits are REALLY expensive, though, which is a shame.

[HoosierBrew]

Yep, no argument on banana being an ester vs a phenol. I was just trying to place what could've caused the critique, in theory. Maybe a low level infection is a possibility. I've just never known 833 to throw banana. Doesn't make it impossible, I guess.

[blair.streit]

Maybe a low level infection is a possibility. I've just never known 833 to throw banana. Doesn't make it impossible, I guess.

Yeah I don't pick up the banana in the aroma myself, but as mentioned I do get a "sweet bread" aroma that is at least adjacent in my mind.

I'm pretty sure it's not a contamination issue. I just had a bottle today that was bottled off the keg at the same time as the ones that were judged. At this point the beer is over 6 months old and over 2 months in the bottle. I would think any kind of contamination would be growing in prominence, but everything seems pretty much the same to me. I also still have some in the keg and it tastes pretty much the same as the bottle (though I'm starting to pick up some faint sweetness in the bottle that I'd chalk up to early signs of oxidation).


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