Author Topic: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'  (Read 4233 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2017, 11:08:08 PM »
This sounds like some food babe BS to me.

If you'd ever seen someone have a reaction to sulfite, you'd know it's real.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2017, 11:15:43 PM »
Back to the OP and original topic...

I myself have puristic tendencies.  I believe many homebrewers, myself included, have had a tendency to meddle too much, without very well determining whether our additional efforts are really adding anything positive to the bottom line, which, of course, is beer flavor and quality.

Also take into consideration that many brewers make fantastic beer the easy way and don't fart around.  They just come up with a reasonable recipe, brew it, and enjoy it.

So I am with you.  I'm interested in getting back to basics, and not sweating details too much.  Crush well, mash well, mash in the right pH range, clean fermenters well, ferment well with healthy yeast.  That....... that is about it.

Cheers all.
Dave

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Offline narvin

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2017, 11:21:30 PM »
This sounds like some food babe BS to me.

If you'd ever seen someone have a reaction to sulfite, you'd know it's real.

The "additives" part is scare tactic, though.  Sulfites are present in many foods, and have been measured in beer as produced by yeast naturally.  You're going to encounter an order of magnitude greater of sulfite in wine must production.
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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2017, 11:32:50 PM »
If you consider that 30 ppm of NaMeta results in < 1 g in 8 gal of water, you can see that we are talking about very small amounts.

I've seen the perils of NaMeta posted in multiple threads now and while the concern is valid as presented, we aren't anywhere near those amounts in pure powder form. You can always use campden if the powder form freaks you out.


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2017, 11:41:57 PM »
Or just accept losses and not use it. I'm a big fan of use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. If I avoided everything the government told me is killing me I would die. I think it's awesome you guys are digging the results from using it. And I dig the results I get from not using it.

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2017, 11:42:56 PM »
Back to the OP and original topic...

I myself have puristic tendencies.  I believe many homebrewers, myself included, have had a tendency to meddle too much, without very well determining whether our additional efforts are really adding anything positive to the bottom line, which, of course, is beer flavor and quality.

Also take into consideration that many brewers make fantastic beer the easy way and don't fart around.  They just come up with a reasonable recipe, brew it, and enjoy it.

So I am with you.  I'm interested in getting back to basics, and not sweating details too much.  Crush well, mash well, mash in the right pH range, clean fermenters well, ferment well with healthy yeast.  That....... that is about it.

Cheers all.
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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2017, 11:47:25 PM »
Or just accept losses and not use it. I'm a big fan of use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. If I avoided everything the government told me is killing me I would die. I think it's awesome you guys are digging the results from using it. And I dig the results I get from not using it.

Absolutely. Just want to make sure people know it's not like arsenic or something!

Offline BrewBama

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Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2017, 12:55:21 AM »
Back to the OP and original topic...

I myself have puristic tendencies.  I believe many homebrewers, myself included, have had a tendency to meddle too much, without very well determining whether our additional efforts are really adding anything positive to the bottom line, which, of course, is beer flavor and quality.

Also take into consideration that many brewers make fantastic beer the easy way and don't fart around.  They just come up with a reasonable recipe, brew it, and enjoy it.

So I am with you.  I'm interested in getting back to basics, and not sweating details too much.  Crush well, mash well, mash in the right pH range, clean fermenters well, ferment well with healthy yeast.  That....... that is about it.

Cheers all.

Couldn't have said it better myself. ...just the basics.


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« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:58:22 AM by BrewBama »
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Big Monk

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2017, 01:05:11 AM »
How are you planning to handle pH reduction? Will you be using untreated tap water in lieu of minerals?


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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2017, 01:14:55 AM »
Or just accept losses and not use it. I'm a big fan of use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. If I avoided everything the government told me is killing me I would die. I think it's awesome you guys are digging the results from using it. And I dig the results I get from not using it.

Absolutely. Just want to make sure people know it's not like arsenic or something!

True.  Just be careful handling it. I've read about some hazards that make me think anyone who uses it should take precautions.


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Big Monk

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2017, 01:22:39 AM »
Or just accept losses and not use it. I'm a big fan of use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. If I avoided everything the government told me is killing me I would die. I think it's awesome you guys are digging the results from using it. And I dig the results I get from not using it.

Absolutely. Just want to make sure people know it's not like arsenic or something!

True.  Just be careful handling it. I've read about some hazards that make me think anyone who uses it should take precautions.


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Oh for sure. Treat with respect just like acids.

Offline stpug

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2017, 01:33:25 AM »
Or just accept losses and not use it. I'm a big fan of use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. If I avoided everything the government told me is killing me I would die. I think it's awesome you guys are digging the results from using it. And I dig the results I get from not using it.

Absolutely. Just want to make sure people know it's not like arsenic or something!

True.  Just be careful handling it. I've read about some hazards that make me think anyone who uses it should take precautions.


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Oh for sure. Treat with respect just like acids.

.... And a boiling pot of sugary .... nevermind, it's brewing, there are many things that can hurt you.  Carboys, bottle bombs, heavy lifting, propane leaks, electrocution, acids, alcohol, etc...

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2017, 01:45:37 AM »
Another $0.02 -  I treat acids, pickling lime (when I used it), smb, hot/boiling liquids, etc,  with respect. But given that wine has many times more sulfite content than beer, my concern is in the handling of the smb (like the other substances), not in the consuming. All the toxicology studies I've read and heard on podcasts, including the presentation at NHC, show alcohol by far as the biggest toxin.
Jon H.

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Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2017, 02:00:55 AM »
How are you planning to handle pH reduction? Will you be using untreated tap water in lieu of minerals?


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I recognize this as an issue so I've been looking into this. I am leaning to dilution and Acidulated Malt.

Per Kai, "to lower the pH of 1 lb of grist by 0.1 pH units you need about 4.1g of acid malt or 0.11 ml of 88% lactic acid. Its 9g acid malt and 0.25 ml 88% lactic acid for 1 kg of malt.

Acid malt is pilsner malt that was sprayed with lacto fermented wort before it was dried again. It contains about 3% lactic acid by weight and is an elegant way of adding acid to your mash since you can weigh it when you weigh the other malts and you don't have to mess with measuring the liquid stuff.

I'm comfortable recommending up to 4% acid malt in the grist. This is equal to ~ 1.1 ml 88% lactic acid for every kg of grist (0.5 ml for every lb). But I haven't done any taste testing to find the limit. When using lactic acid for light beers and highly alkaline water, it is a good idea to reduce the water alkalinity with other means first (dilution, slaked lime, boiling) before using lactic acid to get the pH down further.

1.1 ml for every kg of grist comes out to about 5 ml in an 5 gal batch. I'm not sure if it is better to recommend the acid amount based on the gist size or batch volume. I have started to favor the grist size since it provides the main pH buffer in mashing and higher gravity beers should be able to stand up to more lactic acid additions than lower gravity beers."



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« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 02:03:33 AM by BrewBama »
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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2017, 02:07:08 AM »
How are you planning to handle pH reduction? Will you be using untreated tap water in lieu of minerals?


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I recognize this as an issue so I've been looking into this. I am leaning to dilution and Acidulated Malt.

Per Kai, "to lower the pH of 1 lb of grist by 0.1 pH units you need about 4.1g of acid malt or 0.11 ml of 88% lactic acid. Its 9g acid malt and 0.25 ml 88% lactic acid for 1 kg of malt.

Acid malt is pilsner malt that was sprayed with lacto fermented wort before it was dried again. It contains about 3% lactic acid by weight and is an elegant way of adding acid to your mash since you can weigh it when you weigh the other malts and you don't have to mess with measuring the liquid stuff.

I'm comfortable recommending up to 4% acid malt in the grist. This is equal to ~ 1.1 ml 88% lactic acid for every kg of grist (0.5 ml for every lb). But I haven't done any taste testing to find the limit. When using lactic acid for light beers and highly alkaline water, it is a good idea to reduce the water alkalinity with other means first (dilution, slaked lime, boiling) before using lactic acid to get the pH down further.

1.1 ml for every kg of grist comes out to about 5 ml in an 5 gal batch. I'm not sure if it is better to recommend the acid amount based on the gist size or batch volume. I have started to favor the grist size since it provides the main pH buffer in mashing and higher gravity beers should be able to stand up to more lactic acid additions than lower gravity beers."



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I've sometimes gone up to 7-8% Sauermalz with no noticeable flavor impacts.

Sauergut may be an option you'd want to pursue as well. I know our spreadsheets calcs for Sauergut are 60 ml/kg forbthe mash and 30 ml/kg for the Boil. Hit Bryan or myself up if you need any help getting it going.