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Author Topic: Clear beer??  (Read 10114 times)

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2017, 07:18:02 pm »
The same way a 1/2 is 4/8.  Listen Bryan, im sorry you misspoke, but theres no need for such attitude.

Offline coolman26

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2017, 07:32:53 pm »
If you are brewing all grain you will have to pay attention to your pH if you want clear beers. pH will give you a better cold break which will help with a beer's clearning. Also cooling rapidly can drastically help in the clarity. Irish moss or Whirlflock will help in clearning. Certain yeast are simply stubborn to clear, Chico (US-05/WY1056/WLP001) is one in particular. Gelatin or other fining agents will help dramatically. Biofine Clear is an excellent fining agent. But as mentioned, cold and time will clear all beers eventually.
This^^^ I'm not much on using gelatin. I can feel it on my teeth. Others here like it for sure. Watching your ph and choosing yeasts with the right characteristics is what I do. I have not been using any clarifiers and my beers are clear.


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Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2017, 11:28:29 pm »
So, I like to throw some numbers at it:

If I make my gelatin (or whatever) with 3oz of water at 65C then it will have a maximum of about 5ppm in the liquid.  So, if I then mix that into 640oz (5gal) of beer, then that should dilute to 5ppm*3/640 = 24ppb.  I don't remember what the recommended maximum level is in package, but I think that is something like 2x the maximum number (clearly 0ppb would be best).  Consequently, the shelf life will be degraded substantially.  This is also assuming you don't get any more in there with the injection method.  If you popped the top and dumped it in, then the numbers will be higher.

If someone wanted to, they might be able to get the number well below the 5ppm that I listed above, so maybe it could be gotten down to 8-12ppb in the keg.  The lower the number, the less shelf life degradation, the better (right?).  Of course, shelf life degradation may not matter if you are just clearing it quickly to serve at a party or something that is going to kill the keg in a night or two.

From Water by Palmer & Kaminski (p. 215) -- "The current industry guideline for maximum acceptable oxygen level in packaged beer is less than 50 parts per billion. Levels are typically less than 30 ppb, and the goal for many breweries is less than 10 ppb."

I would suspect that preboiling the gelatin would do the trick if you were really concerned about oxidation. On typical homebrew shelf lives, it's even less of an issue. (my beer in the keg sits around for 2 months maximum, and it's stored at 40F or so--a far cry from beer that sits on store shelves at 70F for 1 month or 2 or 3 or 4) So in other words, oxygen from gelatin addition is probably not a significant issue in my opinion, and almost certainly not a significant issue for most homebrewers.
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The Beerery

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2017, 07:06:38 am »
So, I like to throw some numbers at it:

If I make my gelatin (or whatever) with 3oz of water at 65C then it will have a maximum of about 5ppm in the liquid.  So, if I then mix that into 640oz (5gal) of beer, then that should dilute to 5ppm*3/640 = 24ppb.  I don't remember what the recommended maximum level is in package, but I think that is something like 2x the maximum number (clearly 0ppb would be best).  Consequently, the shelf life will be degraded substantially.  This is also assuming you don't get any more in there with the injection method.  If you popped the top and dumped it in, then the numbers will be higher.

If someone wanted to, they might be able to get the number well below the 5ppm that I listed above, so maybe it could be gotten down to 8-12ppb in the keg.  The lower the number, the less shelf life degradation, the better (right?).  Of course, shelf life degradation may not matter if you are just clearing it quickly to serve at a party or something that is going to kill the keg in a night or two.

From Water by Palmer & Kaminski (p. 215) -- "The current industry guideline for maximum acceptable oxygen level in packaged beer is less than 50 parts per billion. Levels are typically less than 30 ppb, and the goal for many breweries is less than 10 ppb."

I would suspect that preboiling the gelatin would do the trick if you were really concerned about oxidation. On typical homebrew shelf lives, it's even less of an issue. (my beer in the keg sits around for 2 months maximum, and it's stored at 40F or so--a far cry from beer that sits on store shelves at 70F for 1 month or 2 or 3 or 4) So in other words, oxygen from gelatin addition is probably not a significant issue in my opinion, and almost certainly not a significant issue for most homebrewers.

Preboiling alone will not cut it due to Henry's law. You would need some active scavenger in the water or gas blanket..Not to mention how you will added the gelatin after the proboil. Then comes the matter of injecting it into the beer. Simply popping the top and dumping it in is a disaster of oxygen intrusion. I know this because I have a DO meter and have tried all this!
I would agree, since most homebrewers have significantly passed that threshold by fermenting to gravity and racking to packing vessels.
Simply racking a beer into a Keg from the fermenter that has been purged by pressurized keg will pick up anywhere from .4-.9ppm DO depending on how good you are. Those figures will net you a visible (taste-able) decline in as less as 1 week. Remember fading hop aroma IS oxidation.

For those that care its daunting, for those that don't it doesn't matter  ;)

« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 07:13:58 am by The Beerery »

Offline Andor

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2017, 09:32:58 am »
Are there any lager yeasts that are good flocculators?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 09:38:46 am »
Are there any lager yeasts that are good flocculators?


2206 drops pretty easily for a lager strain.
Jon H.

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2017, 11:11:36 am »
It seems to me that when you bottle or keg carbonate with sugar the yeast would scavenge the small amount of O2 introduced in gelatin fining.
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

The Beerery

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2017, 11:31:20 am »
It seems to me that when you bottle or keg carbonate with sugar the yeast would scavenge the small amount of O2 introduced in gelatin fining.

If the yeast is still active, YUP. Yeast won't just wake up to consume oxygen if they are dormant.

Offline stpug

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2017, 11:51:54 am »
It seems to me that when you bottle or keg carbonate with sugar the yeast would scavenge the small amount of O2 introduced in gelatin fining.

I've wondered about gelatin's ability to settle out at a later time, but have never tested it.  I know they say that if you use gelatin, and crash it to promote the sedimentation, that if you disturb it later on then you the gelatin may not sediment again very well (at least I've read this a few times before).  I also read that isinglass is both a better fining agent due to a better collagen structure (or some such thing), AND that it will more readily sediment after being disturbed (again, just something I've read).

So what about the scenario where you keg with priming sugar AND gelatin. You would need to keep the keg at room temp for 2 weeks for priming.  At this point, I assume the gelatin might still not have done it's job of fining and sedimenting, and that once you get the keg into a cold environment then the gelatin fining will finally take effect, but I don't know?

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2017, 09:02:53 pm »
My understanding is that gelatin doesn't really settle out yeast*.  My only evidence for this is that my bottle carbonated beers take the same time to carb up whether they are gelatin fined or not.  It certainly doesn't take out all the yeast or we would never be able to bottle carbonate.  I've read that what gelatin really does is grab onto and settle out haze forming proteins and super fine particulate matter.  A while back, in a post on another forum, a molecular biology doctoral student posted that haze proteins can have either a positive or negative charged end.  A gelatin molecule has both a positive and a negative charged end and can grab onto either or both types of proteins and settle out.  (short version of his explanation)

* maybe it does help with low floculating yeasts like US-05.  I dunno.

Anyway, the process that works for me is to bring the FG beer in the primary down to below 38*F (I like 32-34) for a day or two and gelatin fine.  Then bottle/keg with sugar the next day.
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Online majorvices

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2017, 08:24:20 am »
To be sure, anything you do add to your beer post fermentation will increase DO. Dry hops are far worse than any fining agent, but there is definitely going to be some o2 pick up if you just drop something in a keg. OTOH at the homebrew level you can really almost negate that problem because you can keep it cold and most likely won't be holding onto it for months. At the commercial level there are so many other o2 pick up points that it is best to minimize as much as possible at every critical point. Also you can't control the beer once it leaves the brewery.

If you are really concerned about picking up o2 during fining, purge an empty keg with co2 after adding the fining then push the beer over on top of that beer via closed transfer with a co2 push. You can do this with dry hops as well.

The Beerery

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2017, 11:30:14 am »
To be sure, anything you do add to your beer post fermentation will increase DO. Dry hops are far worse than any fining agent, but there is definitely going to be some o2 pick up if you just drop something in a keg. OTOH at the homebrew level you can really almost negate that problem because you can keep it cold and most likely won't be holding onto it for months. At the commercial level there are so many other o2 pick up points that it is best to minimize as much as possible at every critical point. Also you can't control the beer once it leaves the brewery.

If you are really concerned about picking up o2 during fining, purge an empty keg with co2 after adding the fining then push the beer over on top of that beer via closed transfer with a co2 push. You can do this with dry hops as well.

I agree, however just co2 purging a keg isn't going to work (stupid gas laws). The best way would be to trim your gas in diptubes to the absolute shortest they can be, then fill the beer with sanitizer (preferably a non foaming sanitizer, foam is bubbles of air). When its full put the lid on, but wait you are not done! Connect the liquid out to your faucet and a gas out fitting to your gas in. Tilt the keg so the gas port is the highest and slowly run water from the faucet until liquid comes out the gas in fitting. Undo the gas in fitting, and undo the liquid out. You should have now filled that void in the lid of the keg with water. Now go ahead and push that out with CO2, you are still not done though, since you will have some sanitizer left in the bottom of the keg, and that sanitizer has water in it, and that water has DO in it. Attach the gas to the liquid out and grab the disconnect you used for the gas in for filling. Do the exact opposite of the water filling and invert the keg with the gas in at the lowest point and blow out the sanitizer. THIS is BEST way for us homebrewers to purge a keg. Unless you have a vacuum pump of course (which I do!).
Cheers

Offline duelerx

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 09:50:44 am »
To be sure, anything you do add to your beer post fermentation will increase DO. Dry hops are far worse than any fining agent, but there is definitely going to be some o2 pick up if you just drop something in a keg. OTOH at the homebrew level you can really almost negate that problem because you can keep it cold and most likely won't be holding onto it for months. At the commercial level there are so many other o2 pick up points that it is best to minimize as much as possible at every critical point. Also you can't control the beer once it leaves the brewery.

If you are really concerned about picking up o2 during fining, purge an empty keg with co2 after adding the fining then push the beer over on top of that beer via closed transfer with a co2 push. You can do this with dry hops as well.

I agree, however just co2 purging a keg isn't going to work (stupid gas laws). The best way would be to trim your gas in diptubes to the absolute shortest they can be, then fill the beer with sanitizer (preferably a non foaming sanitizer, foam is bubbles of air). When its full put the lid on, but wait you are not done! Connect the liquid out to your faucet and a gas out fitting to your gas in. Tilt the keg so the gas port is the highest and slowly run water from the faucet until liquid comes out the gas in fitting. Undo the gas in fitting, and undo the liquid out. You should have now filled that void in the lid of the keg with water. Now go ahead and push that out with CO2, you are still not done though, since you will have some sanitizer left in the bottom of the keg, and that sanitizer has water in it, and that water has DO in it. Attach the gas to the liquid out and grab the disconnect you used for the gas in for filling. Do the exact opposite of the water filling and invert the keg with the gas in at the lowest point and blow out the sanitizer. THIS is BEST way for us homebrewers to purge a keg. Unless you have a vacuum pump of course (which I do!).
Cheers

How do you purge with a vacuum pump?

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2017, 08:49:21 pm »
To be sure, anything you do add to your beer post fermentation will increase DO. Dry hops are far worse than any fining agent, but there is definitely going to be some o2 pick up if you just drop something in a keg. OTOH at the homebrew level you can really almost negate that problem because you can keep it cold and most likely won't be holding onto it for months. At the commercial level there are so many other o2 pick up points that it is best to minimize as much as possible at every critical point. Also you can't control the beer once it leaves the brewery.

If you are really concerned about picking up o2 during fining, purge an empty keg with co2 after adding the fining then push the beer over on top of that beer via closed transfer with a co2 push. You can do this with dry hops as well.

I agree, however just co2 purging a keg isn't going to work (stupid gas laws). The best way would be to trim your gas in diptubes to the absolute shortest they can be, then fill the beer with sanitizer (preferably a non foaming sanitizer, foam is bubbles of air). When its full put the lid on, but wait you are not done! Connect the liquid out to your faucet and a gas out fitting to your gas in. Tilt the keg so the gas port is the highest and slowly run water from the faucet until liquid comes out the gas in fitting. Undo the gas in fitting, and undo the liquid out. You should have now filled that void in the lid of the keg with water. Now go ahead and push that out with CO2, you are still not done though, since you will have some sanitizer left in the bottom of the keg, and that sanitizer has water in it, and that water has DO in it. Attach the gas to the liquid out and grab the disconnect you used for the gas in for filling. Do the exact opposite of the water filling and invert the keg with the gas in at the lowest point and blow out the sanitizer. THIS is BEST way for us homebrewers to purge a keg. Unless you have a vacuum pump of course (which I do!).
Cheers

When you say vacuum pump, will just any vacuum pump work? There are some good cheap ones out there for bleeding brakes...

(No, I'm not going to "share" my automotive bleeder with brewing. Brake fluid and beer don't mix.)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline 802Chris

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Re: Clear beer??
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2017, 08:03:20 am »
Meanwhile OP is watching is innocently asked question turn into a full on smack down between LODO and non-LODO brewers, while barely getting any useful information for his personal home use application...


Andor, I have found that proper PH during mash and cold crashing before racking (if you can) OR long term (2-3 weeks)cold storage (when bottling) showed the most improvement for me. Also, if you keg, adding heated rehydrated gelatin to the keg when racking cold beer from the fermenter should give you amazingly clear beer within a week of being in the keg. I have personally not noticed any negative side effects from any of these methods. YMMV