Author Topic: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'  (Read 5357 times)

Offline chumley

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2017, 04:13:32 AM »
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3. CAMRA defines 'Real Ale' as a beer brewed from traditional ingredients (malted barley, hops, water and yeast). They go on to say it is matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide.

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This is total hooey, this notion that the Brits brew real ale following the Reinheitsgebot.  They are the kings of sugar and caramel color.

If you are brewing real ale without sugar or adjuncts you are doing yourself a disservice.

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2017, 10:42:34 AM »
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3. CAMRA defines 'Real Ale' as a beer brewed from traditional ingredients (malted barley, hops, water and yeast). They go on to say it is matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide.

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This is total hooey, this notion that the Brits brew real ale following the Reinheitsgebot.  They are the kings of sugar and caramel color.

If you are brewing real ale without sugar or adjuncts you are doing yourself a disservice.

They also are known to use corn, other adjuncts, honey, and so on.
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Online BrewBama

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2017, 12:58:56 PM »
My point is back to the basics. I don't want hexaflorotrichloro BS in my beer. Sugar, caramel, corn, ...I can live with. (Though I really don't like corn taste in my beer). Good ingredients to produce good beer in a simple, easy way. This is not rocket science.


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Offline narvin

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2017, 01:12:15 PM »
Real ale has to be fined in the cask, as well.
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2017, 01:20:13 PM »
Not many of us are firkin Masters.  I too think adjuncts and sugars help make a great beer, within reason.

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Offline narvin

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2017, 01:25:15 PM »
My point is back to the basics. I don't want hexaflorotrichloro BS in my beer. Sugar, caramel, corn, ...I can live with. (Though I really don't like corn taste in my beer). Good ingredients to produce good beer in a simple, easy way. This is not rocket science.


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Chemistry is science,, though, and the question of what is "natural" is a very complex one.  The industrial process to grow the malt and hops (unless you buy organic) and even to treat municipal water uses more chemicals than anything homebrewers are adding.

There's nothing bad about simplifying process, especially unnecessary process.  Just saying that the question of what is natural, safe, etc is an extremely complex one.  Oversimplifying it can do more harm than good.
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2017, 02:01:17 PM »
I think the missing point is from where I sit, let's all avoid: 'nacho' cheese lab creating artificial beers.  The K-Cup beer, or simply syrup beer blended in a tap with carbonated water.

I prefer - the less is more - attitude, and approach to my beers.  Some styles call for it.  So just like beef wellington it is a special occasion for me.

If Orange Powdered Cheese Ale is your thing, this topic or driving passion for pure fermentation, RO (unless you're lucky enough to live on an aquifer) and salts, and maybe even natural carbing if the style calls for it.

This may be the inverse approach to LoDo brewing because it complicates the complicated process of brewing beer.  Likewise Simplifying the already complex scientific processes that is water chemistry, malt, yeast, and yeasts phases.  Lets be honest for most brewers, honing in on all grain brews from water chemistry, pH, recirculating mash, DF mash temps, and decoction are enough to overwhelm the 'veteran' brewers.  Some LHBS don't wrap there heads are the ideas, let alone the average home brewer.  It is something I am looking to do.  I for one have never enjoyed normal lagers with exception of helles, bock,and dunkels.  My experiences with LoDo have caused almost 8 weeks before my wheat beers are enjoyable, vs 18 days grain to glass with bottle conditioning.  That alone causes me to change my approaches with the trifecta LoDo approach to only my preferred lager beers.  I will be honest I don't like any of the helles I have made, and am still tinkering on my lager process for the better Helles.

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« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 02:14:04 PM by JJeffers09 »
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The Beerery

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Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2017, 02:41:00 PM »
If it takes 8 weeks, you added way too much SMB. There should be zero sulfur after fermentation.  Don't blame the process, when the criteria (zero sulfites after boil) is not met.  I brew lagers that after 7 days are fully carbed, and can easily be drank as a Kellerbier and far better ham anything I prodcuced prior.


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« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 02:43:21 PM by The Beerery »

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2017, 03:25:19 PM »
Fair enough, you can speculate I did it wrong. I can say it has been my experience that it doubles my grain to glass time.

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The Beerery

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Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2017, 04:05:19 PM »
Buy the test strips and inform yourself. 

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/sulfite-testing-strips/


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« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:08:13 PM by The Beerery »

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #85 on: April 03, 2017, 12:43:06 AM »
Fair enough, you can speculate I did it wrong. I can say it has been my experience that it doubles my grain to glass time.

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The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The doubling of your grain to glass time could be a result of you doing it wrong. Not a dig, just an observation.

You've described the process you used in PM to me previously and while i couldn't place a smoking gun, I'm also not brewing with you and seeing what you're doing.

Bryan makes a good point when he talks about any residual sulfites being taken care of in the boil. Given what you've said about your NaMeta dose, it's unlikely you are converting enough into sulfate to have a detrimental affect. That in essence leaves post fermentation sulfur as the culprit. Unless of course you are massively overdosing with antioxidants. Enough to not be boiled off. That seems less likely.

It could be your errors are downstream of wort and beer production. Something's got to give and it seems that you are doing something that is increasing either sulfur or perception of sulfur downstream from your wort production. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 12:45:22 AM by Big Monk »

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2017, 08:10:50 AM »
Maybe.  I will throw uncertainty because I am no expert.  I seem confident enough to follow directions and given the vast amount of information provided by Bryan on the 'how to' it's seemed that I fell in the guidelines of a LoDo hefe.

That being said, Bryan.  Have you brewed with a weizen strain employing LoDo methods?  Have either of you?  I understand that you guys have done your research.  You tell me to educate myself.  Kind of a dig BTW.  Which I would ask you to educate me.  Are you saying there are no sulfur compound left after primary fermentation?  No sulphites of any kind?  I believe, have read, have experienced, and will continue to not believe that notion.  What is DMS? H2S? How does a beer get skunked?  I can trust my own tongue, it smelled like rotten eggs, it tasted like a h2s bomb.  Wheat beers get under pitched, lagers don't.   My fermentation schedule is quite cool for ale temps and ramp late.

I am not new to the game.  I know this brew, this strain, and how it tastes.  I can recreate this beer flawlessly day after day.  And have proved it in my last shindig - a diner rehearsal with friends.  15 gallons made in 3 different brew days.   I had saved myself 1 bottle of each to try side by side.  They were exactly the same.  Same color, same aroma, same level of foam, same finished OG/FG, pH was the same mash/boil/preFerm.  Post fermentation was off by .01 in the 2nd batch.  You might think I need to educate myself.  I know this recipe, this strain, and how it behaves.  I brew this 2x a month, and I honestly can say the 1st time I tried LoDo on my hefeweizen it was s***. Pure s***.  I am still trying to get the LoDo thing going on my helles, and I will say it is seeming to be the better lager that I have made. Bottle conditioning will be the judge of that...

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2017, 01:46:31 PM »
Maybe.  I will throw uncertainty because I am no expert.  I seem confident enough to follow directions and given the vast amount of information provided by Bryan on the 'how to' it's seemed that I fell in the guidelines of a LoDo hefe.

That being said, Bryan.  Have you brewed with a weizen strain employing LoDo methods?  Have either of you?  I understand that you guys have done your research.  You tell me to educate myself.  Kind of a dig BTW.  Which I would ask you to educate me.  Are you saying there are no sulfur compound left after primary fermentation?  No sulphites of any kind?  I believe, have read, have experienced, and will continue to not believe that notion.  What is DMS? H2S? How does a beer get skunked?  I can trust my own tongue, it smelled like rotten eggs, it tasted like a h2s bomb.  Wheat beers get under pitched, lagers don't.   My fermentation schedule is quite cool for ale temps and ramp late.

I am not new to the game.  I know this brew, this strain, and how it tastes.  I can recreate this beer flawlessly day after day.  And have proved it in my last shindig - a diner rehearsal with friends.  15 gallons made in 3 different brew days.   I had saved myself 1 bottle of each to try side by side.  They were exactly the same.  Same color, same aroma, same level of foam, same finished OG/FG, pH was the same mash/boil/preFerm.  Post fermentation was off by .01 in the 2nd batch.  You might think I need to educate myself.  I know this recipe, this strain, and how it behaves.  I brew this 2x a month, and I honestly can say the 1st time I tried LoDo on my hefeweizen it was s***. Pure s***.  I am still trying to get the LoDo thing going on my helles, and I will say it is seeming to be the better lager that I have made. Bottle conditioning will be the judge of that...

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I apologize for the short responses, it was during quick downtimes.

Yes I have done a number of Hefe's. You need the strips to tell you what you have left over otherwise its like trying to tell pH without a ph meter or test strips. All my ales and hefe's turn out great with no sulfur. As noted in the other thread you use a notorious sulfur producing strain on its own as well. That sounds like a recipe for disaster if you have any left over sulfites. So it circles back to having a method to know how much sulfites you need.

Offline Lazy Ant Brewing

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Re: Reinheitsgabot and 'Real Ale'
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2017, 02:56:04 PM »
I just want the best  tasting beer I can craft, brewed with the simplest process (BIAB) with controlled temperature for fermentation, unfiltered and bottled. I do add a few grams of gypsum and calcium chloride to treat my water. Otherwise, all my ingredients are natural if one includes the lactose used in the occasional sweet stout I brew.

If the "purists"don't like my beer, that's just more brew  for me to drink.  But if you prefer to brew beer to conform to the German purity standards,"go for it."

This debate also reminds me of the debate over organic food versus food produced with conventional agriculture.  There have been more than 1,800 studies showing that conventionally-produced food is just as safe as organic and offers more efficiency.

Common myths are organic food production:

1. Organic foods are produced without pesticides.  Wrong!  Organic pesticides are used for some crops and some organic pesticides are more toxic than synthetic pesticides.  Compare the toxicity of the organic pesticide rotenone to synthetic Sevin.  Application of rotenone has been largely phased out in the U.S. and Canada because of that high toxicity, but is used in other countries.  About one-third of our fresh fruits and vegetables including those organically grown are imported and standards are sometimes less stringent in other countries.

2. Organic food production is safer for the environment.  Not always!  The organic pesticide spinosad is more toxic to bees than some synthetic compounds and is commonly used for both conventionally-grown and organic production of lettuce and other crops.  Depending on the particular crop, synthetic pesticides used in conventional agriculture are often safer than the organic alternative.

Another drawback to organic, is that it is less productive than conventional agriculture by about 18%
 to about 25%.  If we tried to switch every acre now farmed conventionally to organic, even more forests and prairies now untended would have to used to produce the same amount of food.

Enough of my rant!  I'll open a cold one with my lunch and chill.








It's easier to read brewing books and get information from the forum than to sacrifice virgins to appease the brewing gods when bad beer happens!