[bayareabrewer]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

[stpug]

This is a good experiment from my perspective, and the results are not surprising - though perhaps a little premature from the perspective of "quality experiments".  I was also in the same boat last year, and with experience comes process adjustment and development which ultimately lead to improved success.  I believe it's once you are able to produce successful low oxygen batches that this experiment should be revisited.

As for sulfury beer - the ultimate detriment to this experiment and some low oxygen batches - sulfites are simply a means to an end at the moment, and will certainly be replaced with an alternative, yet equally effective scavenger comes along.  It's too bad that the "defacto standard" beer style (a lager of all styles) was not chosen for this published experiment (an ale).

@bayareabrewer: that's the case with every bru-cru (and experimental brewing) experiment - "discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly".

[denny]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

Read my mind...although that's hard to discount here.  There are so many components to the LODO process, how do you decide how to keep variables constant?  Was this a trial of conditioned grain vs. non conditioned?  Or of normal brewing process vs. LODO? 

[bayareabrewer]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

Read my mind...although that's hard to discount here.  There are so many components to the LODO process, how do you decide how to keep variables constant?  Was this a trial of conditioned grain vs. non conditioned?  Or of normal brewing process vs. LODO?

After about to 15th time seeing the same song and dance, I just kinda roll my eyes. Heck, even Bamforth is calling the methods incorrect.

[HoosierBrew]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

Not refuting anything - I'm sharing my experience with OGs.

Let me put out a pre-emptive "Everybody chill." Life and death isn't riding on either side of this. 

[denny]

This is a good experiment from my perspective, and the results are not surprising - though perhaps a little premature from the perspective of "quality experiments".  I was also in the same boat last year, and with experience comes process adjustment and development which ultimately lead to improved success.  I believe it's once you are able to produce successful low oxygen batches that this experiment should be revisited.

As for sulfury beer - the ultimate detriment to this experiment and some low oxygen batches - sulfites are simply a means to an end at the moment, and will certainly be replaced with an alternative, yet equally effective scavenger comes along.  It's too bad that the "defacto standard" beer style (a lager of all styles) was not chosen for this published experiment (an ale).

@bayareabrewer: that's the case with every bru-cru (and experimental brewing) experiment - "discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly".

But it's supposedly equally viable with any style, right?  And there isn't a vast difference between a kolsch and a helles.

[Stevie]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

It seems to me that most trials of any sort have room for improvement.

[narcout]

I didn't see any indication in the article of how much mixing he did, so I'm curious if the low o2 version of it just wasn't mixed in as well and he got poor efficiency from that.

This is my guess as well. Or maybe some combination of this and the effect grain conditioning has on the crush.

[chumley]

Whew.  I was worried, before reading the article, that I was going to have to go out and invest in a stainless steel immersion chiller.

[denny]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

It seems to me that most trials of any sort have room for improvement.

Indeed.

[narcout]

But it's supposedly equally viable with any style, right?  And there isn't a vast difference between a kolsch and a helles.

Some yeast strains do not seem to handle the by-products of the SMB well and produce more hydrogen sulphide.

There's a list going on the low oxygen forum of the strains people have had success with and those that maybe should be avoided.

"After sharing an image of both worts with the other contributors, we began to speculate that perhaps the color difference was a function of the standard wort simply having a higher concentration of sugar.  To test this out, I diluted the standard wort sample with water until it reached the same 1.035 SG as the LODO wort then compared them again with validating results."

I don't understand the last sentence, does it mean the color difference remained after the standard wort was diluted or the opposite?  I can't really tell from the picture.

[denny]

Some yeast strains do not seem to handle the by-products of the SMB well and produce more hydrogen sulphide.

There's a list going on the low oxygen forum of the strains people have had success with and those that maybe should be avoided.

"After sharing an image of both worts with the other contributors, we began to speculate that perhaps the color difference was a function of the standard wort simply having a higher concentration of sugar.  To test this out, I diluted the standard wort sample with water until it reached the same 1.035 SG as the LODO wort then compared them again with validating results."

I don't understand the last sentence, does it mean the color difference remained after the standard wort was diluted or the opposite?  I can't really tell from the picture.

Means they looked the same after diluting, which is what the pics looked like to me.

Ingredient limitations are yet another reason I'm not interested in the method.

[natebrews]

It seems that most trials that refute LODO inevitably degrade into discussions as to how the trial was done incorrectly.

It seems to me that most trials of any sort have room for improvement.

Indeed.

In fairness to all sides, if you said you were evaluating Simpsons C40 vs Briess C40 and you made two blonde ales with them to compare, some people would take issue with the fact that one was about 9 points different than the other for OG and FG.  Then if tasters said they had a preference for the higher gravity one, I think there would be a lot of voices saying "well, yeah...it wasn't really a fair experiment"

[MaltMaker]

I think what's missing is the iterative cycle needed to determine the various factors and to refine the LODO process:

1.) How much SMB is needed?  The author didn't seem to measure the remaining sulfites at the end of the mash, boil and fermentation.  In order to improve the process this is absolutely necessary such that one knows exactly how much SMB is needed.

2.) SMB is only one such anti-oxidant.  Ascorbic acid and gallotannins are usually combined with SMB in order to lower the dosage of SMB.

3.) Stirring an underlet mash is allowed and was not done (or perhaps I missed it).

4.) Recirculation was not done either and is a vital part of a no-sparge underlet mash process.

This same beer would have to be brewed perhaps 4-5+ times minimum before all inconsistencies in the process could be worked out.

There's probably only a handful of people who have worked out their process such that 0 sulfites remain.

My suggestion is take a road trip to the lead LODO guys house with his auto-magic system and have him brew the two test batches while ya'll sit around drinking Helles

[erockrph]

The whole difference in efficiency is a curiosity, for sure, but that's nothing that can't easily be overcome.

The key takeaway for me is that the added sulfites from the SMB has the potential to cause eggy/sulfurous off flavors - although I would not be surprised if yeast strain has a big impact on this as well. Doubly interesting is that some contact with copper is often a simple cure for this, but copper is verboten in LODO.