Author Topic: How much to under pitch?  (Read 1959 times)

Offline ANDREW.GROGAN1

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
How much to under pitch?
« on: April 11, 2017, 04:47:10 PM »
I am designing a hefe recipe with 3068.  Wyeast states under pitching will give you more ester/banana flavors.  What would classify a controlled under pitch?  Do I just need to try things and see what I like?  I don't want to under pitched too much.  Would a 10% under pitch be enough?

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19939
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 04:48:12 PM »
Who knows?  Pitch rate is a pretty uncertain way to control esters.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline JJeffers09

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1126
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 04:48:19 PM »
It is all trial and error based on your perception... 10% is a good starting point

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

AHA Member
Indiana Brewers Union (IBU)

Offline ANDREW.GROGAN1

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2017, 04:53:43 PM »
Who knows?  Pitch rate is a pretty uncertain way to control esters.

Than what is?  I was under the impression yeast choice would be the best way to control it. 

Offline JJeffers09

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1126
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 05:04:11 PM »
Who knows?  Pitch rate is a pretty uncertain way to control esters.

Than what is?  I was under the impression yeast choice would be the best way to control it.

Well 3068 is going to give you an acid reaction to create 4vg (clove).  You need an acid rest in your mash at 110-133F for your Ferulic Acid Rest.  Then if you are into a DF step mash or a step mash in general you can take your pick of moving to protein, alpha, beta, and mash out.  If not jump to your single infusion temp and mash away.  3068 will give you banana no matter what you do, the balanced clove will come from the proper acid rest, and pitchrates IME.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

AHA Member
Indiana Brewers Union (IBU)

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19939
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 05:53:47 PM »
Who knows?  Pitch rate is a pretty uncertain way to control esters.

Than what is?  I was under the impression yeast choice would be the best way to control it.

Generally, fermentation temp.  Yes, to a degree you can control the ester profile with pitching rate, but as you point out who knows how much to get how much?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3445
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 05:58:11 PM »
I can't say I've used 3068 yet.  However, assuming it's much like any other hefeweizen yeast, I'd ferment at 70 F, and that way you'll get your banana.  And with an underpitch, maybe even more.  For a serious underpitch, I'd use 1/4 the mrmalty.com recommended amount.  So when he says you need like 2.5 liters for 5 gallons, screw it and just pitch a fully (or even just half?) swollen smackpack without any starter and it should turn out to your liking.

So far I'm a believer in underpitching as a viable means of awesomeness in hefs and Belgians.  However, my experiments are yet to be run this summer in this regard.  I'm sure I'll be surprised by something along the way.  So, proceed, with caution.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline ANDREW.GROGAN1

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 06:05:10 PM »
I can't say I've used 3068 yet.  However, assuming it's much like any other hefeweizen yeast, I'd ferment at 70 F, and that way you'll get your banana.  And with an underpitch, maybe even more.  For a serious underpitch, I'd use 1/4 the mrmalty.com recommended amount.  So when he says you need like 2.5 liters for 5 gallons, screw it and just pitch a fully (or even just half?) swollen smackpack without any starter and it should turn out to your liking.

So far I'm a believer in underpitching as a viable means of awesomeness in hefs and Belgians.  However, my experiments are yet to be run this summer in this regard.  I'm sure I'll be surprised by something along the way.  So, proceed, with caution.

Good points.  It's so hard to control yeast counts.  I think Denny is on the right track.  Temp is a way easier variable to control. 

Offline Todd H.

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 07:12:47 PM »
Has anyone run a side by side comparison of underpitched vs normal pitched for this and truly detected enhanced ester formation in the underpitched batch?
Try as I might, I can't wrap my head around how underpitching could lead to more esters produced, given that underpitching should mean more cell division, a process which will use acetyl-CoA for lipid production (and hence not for esterification).  If anything, underpitching in my mind would result in lower ester production (note I'm not saying that underpitching wouldn't lead to undesirable effects, I'm just wondering about esters in particular).
I say this as from an academic standpoint, not as someone who has ever done a spilt-batch comparison, hence my question.
Thanks guys.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19939
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2017, 07:40:45 PM »
Has anyone run a side by side comparison of underpitched vs normal pitched for this and truly detected enhanced ester formation in the underpitched batch?
Try as I might, I can't wrap my head around how underpitching could lead to more esters produced, given that underpitching should mean more cell division, a process which will use acetyl-CoA for lipid production (and hence not for esterification).  If anything, underpitching in my mind would result in lower ester production (note I'm not saying that underpitching wouldn't lead to undesirable effects, I'm just wondering about esters in particular).
I say this as from an academic standpoint, not as someone who has ever done a spilt-batch comparison, hence my question.
Thanks guys.

As a proponent of the Acetyl-CoA theory, I agree with you.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3445
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
    • Manty Malters - Meet the Malters! - Dave Taylor
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2017, 08:30:10 PM »
Now what happens if we skip cold side aeration/oxygenation -- boil vigorously, then very gently rack the wort into the fermenter, and pitch on top of that.  I'm not saying this is a good idea, I'm just saying I don't know what it does.  And most of us probably don't.  :)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline RC

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2017, 02:05:58 AM »
Has anyone run a side by side comparison of underpitched vs normal pitched for this and truly detected enhanced ester formation in the underpitched batch?
Try as I might, I can't wrap my head around how underpitching could lead to more esters produced, given that underpitching should mean more cell division, a process which will use acetyl-CoA for lipid production (and hence not for esterification).  If anything, underpitching in my mind would result in lower ester production (note I'm not saying that underpitching wouldn't lead to undesirable effects, I'm just wondering about esters in particular).
I say this as from an academic standpoint, not as someone who has ever done a spilt-batch comparison, hence my question.
Thanks guys.

I haven't done a side by side but I've used 3068 a lot. It's my go-to hefe strain. I can say from experience that, at least for me, underpitching will noticeably increase the banana ester (isoamyl acetate). My starters sit on stir plates in a flask with a foam stopper, for ~24 hours. If I pitch a 1 L starter (per 5 gal) of 3068, I get very little banana; it's pretty much all clove and it tastes like a Belgian ale. If I pitch 0.5 L, I get enough banana to balance the clove, much more true to style and much better IMHO. In theory, direct pitching a smack pack should increase the banana even more, and I've tried this but the beer never seems to turn out as well (hence the value of starters). The science behind underpitching yielding more esters is that when you underpitch, it will take longer for the yeast for reach their maximum cell density in the wort, and it's during this time that the majority of esters are formed. Underpitching means that more of everything will be made, including the banana ester. As for temp, yes higher temp will increase the banana, but in my experience the best results are obtained at about 68. I think that for this strain, the underpitching is more important than fermenting at a higher temp.

Offline neddles

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2017, 04:50:05 AM »
Basic Brewing Radio did a show where, IIRC, 3068 was pitched at three different rates and compared. One of the underpitched beers was preferred.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2017, 09:33:52 AM »
The yeast section in "Brew like a Monk" is a great summary of how pitch rate, fermentation temperature, etc. affects final beer flavor. I believe it's Chapter 8.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline hackrsackr

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
    • View Profile
Re: How much to under pitch?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2017, 10:53:50 AM »
Clove is a 4-vinyl phenol, not an ester...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk