Author Topic: Brewtan Experiment Writeup  (Read 6731 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2017, 10:47:03 PM »
tannic compounds are used in wine making, and their makeup can vary substantially. I would be wary of putting that stuff in my beer without knowing exactly what it was.

I wouldn't be afraid to try it, just not sure how you'd test for residuals in the final product.  Food grade tannin is food grade tannin, worst case you'd probably get a mouth full of astrigency.

personal experience I've seen some pretty harsh tasting oak compounds and other things added to wine tannins that would probably taste pretty nasty in beer.

Yep.  I won't try to talk anybody out of trying it, but I'm not gonna!  For whatever it might be worth, the tannin pictured in that link looked considerably darker than Brewtan.  But who knows how accurate that is.



Yeah, I can't claim to be a winemaker but I've made a lot of cider where I add wine tannin for background character. That stuff's not subtle in the slightest. But the Brewtan at Joe's stated dose is flavor neutral to me and I'm sure you too, Denny. Wine tannin has that puckering, 'sucking on a tea bag' thing to me. Big difference IMO.
Jon H.

MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2017, 12:19:01 AM »
I agree with the color difference and that certain wine tannins can be harsh due to extraction from wood products but there are also certain wine tannins extracted from grape skins that are lighter in color and perhaps less harsh.

http://www.brewbitz.com/chemicals-enhancers/281-youngs-wine-tannin-50g.html

http://sourbeerblog.com/tannins-in-sour-beer/

Perhaps it's the case that the manufacturer of BrewTan has a proprietary process for extraction of some specific tannins from some specific food product, but then again maybe not as there may be a filler or some other chemical in the mix.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 12:20:53 AM by MaltMaker »

Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2017, 12:20:54 AM »
People using municipal source water and copper components are going to immediately see and taste a difference for sure. The impact of Brewtan B alone is going to decrease the farther away from those variables you get.
Any idea whether BTB is beneficial for iron and manganese as well? I would assume if it chelates copper, then it should handle most heavy metal ions, but chelating agents can be wierd about that sometimes.

I would recommend an email to Joe Formanek.  He probably knows better than anyone here.

Definitely Iron. A lot of the literature out there about its use in chelating iron, copper, various other metals. It's also going to drop out proteins and lipids from the mash. It blocks/decelerates Fenton reactions from occurring as well.

So it's easy to see how it would be helpful, even if it isn't an oxygen scavenger.

MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2017, 12:27:17 AM »
Perhaps this is a better picture or example of grape tannins:

http://www.leeners.com/winemaking/store/grape-tannin.shtml

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2017, 12:36:16 AM »
Perhaps this is a better picture or example of grape tannins:

http://www.leeners.com/winemaking/store/grape-tannin.shtml



That's the stuff I add to cider. Very assertive.

I could be wrong (pretty much any time) but I thought I read a reference to Brewtan being made from gallnuts, from oak trees. Maybe the fact that it's called a gallotannin backs that up. If so, definitely a different grade of tannin. I'd like to see Joe weigh in, so I'll know if I'm right or delusional.  ;D
Jon H.

Offline stpug

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2017, 12:48:03 AM »
There's a decent discussion on Tannic Acid vs Tannins where grape-related tannins are one form, and gall nut tannins are another.  Then there appears to be some confusion on the terms 'tannins' vs 'tannic acid' and how they are not necessarily interchangeable, but it's still very iffy to me.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Tannins_vs_tannic_acid

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2017, 11:14:41 AM »
Then there appears to be some confusion on the terms 'tannins' vs 'tannic acid' and how they are not necessarily interchangeable


Thanks for posting. I've been wondering the same thing.
Jon H.

MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2017, 04:01:01 PM »
So what we're looking for are hydrolyzable gallotannins from Gallnuts and Tara pods.

http://gwi.missouri.edu/publications/presentations-2016/lahue-innovative-oak-tannins.pdf

One can purchase this by the kilogram from China, specifically advertised to be used for beer brewing:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-supply-Gallnuts-extract-tannin_60434009552.html

One can also purchase these extracts from various other sources.

http://www.nutragreenbio.com/product/chinese-gallnut-extract-tannic-acid

From the Anjinomoto website:

https://www.natural-specialities.com/tannic-acid.html#raw-materials

Quote
Typical raw materials include: Chinese gallnuts, alepo nuts, sumac leaves and tara pods.

Metal Chelating from:

http://gwi.missouri.edu/publications/presentations-2016/lahue-innovative-oak-tannins.pdf

Quote
Enological Tannins can form soluble complexes with metals, especially Iron, called chelates

Direct Effect-Unchelated Iron turns reddish brown

Indirect Effect-Unchelated Iron is a catalyst and wine phenolicsturn brown
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 04:05:46 PM by MaltMaker »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2017, 05:22:31 PM »
Once you dive in, it is pretty interesting how many different tannin varieties there are out there. Scott labs alone markets 11 separate products:

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/324/ScottTan.pdf

From the descriptions, it sounds like the FT Blanc is closest to what we're looking for.

The FT Blanc Soft is available at a few places, inclusing MoreWine, at reasonable enough prices to try it for yourself:

https://morewinemaking.com/products/tannin-ft-blanc-soft.html
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MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2017, 06:16:22 PM »
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2017, 07:21:28 PM »
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"

IMHO, and based on working with the company, I really doubt that.  What makes you think so?
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MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2017, 07:34:33 PM »
It is interesting.

IMHO BrewTan B is just a repackaged, target marketed, and overpriced version of one (or a mix) of these readily available products.

I'm almost tempted just to order a kg of the stuff from China or one of the other vendors.  Heck maybe order several from different sources (gall nut, tara pod, etc..) mix in some of the Enological Tannins for good measure.  Then combine it with some SMB and ascorbic acid, call it the "Magic Dust - Clear your beer and make it last forever!"

IMHO, and based on working with the company, I really doubt that.  What makes you think so?

Because their website indicates they source these tannins from China!

Quote
Typical raw materials include: Chinese gallnuts, alepo nuts, sumac leaves and tara pods.

Because I can buy these exact same tannins from China in bulk (marketed toward beer specifically)!

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-supply-Gallnuts-extract-tannin_60434009552.html

Because their chemistry indicates nothing special except hydrolizable gallotanins and ellagi-tannins:

https://www.natural-specialities.com/tannic-acid.html#chemistry

Because they have no special properties in their product not already inherent to the tannins used.

Because there are many other products on the market incorporating these same tannins.  (aka, AntiOxin SBT, many different wine tannin brands, etc...)

They would have to prove some special manufacturing or extraction process with locally sourced materials that somehow endowed their tannins with something special.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2017, 07:47:12 PM »
MaltMaker, by all means, make your own. Experimenting is great. But keep in mind that, since Brewtan is sold as 'tannic acid', buying gall nuts or ground gall nut tannin may not yield the equivalent, either in efficacy or flavor neutrality. Maybe it will. Have at it and report back.
Jon H.

Offline stpug

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2017, 08:09:09 PM »
To me, it appears that what MaltMaker has linked to in the alibaba site is an extract of tannic acid from similar host plants as Brewtan B.  It appears to be a spray-dried product as well.  My guess is that it is chemically very similar to Brewtan B.  The processing used to create the tannic acid extract appears to be different as Anjinmoto states their multi-step processing with decent detail whereas the alibaba only states solvent extracted.  Anjinmoto also claims a high level of purity (i.e. lack of impurities), whereas the alibaba doesn't.  Assuming they are as close as they seem, chances are that a person would not notice the difference in beer between these two products used in the same manner.

On that note, I would still prefer to buy Anjinmoto's Brewtan B product because this is something I will eventually consume into my body.  If it was LED ropelights - alibaba FTW, but when it comes to stuff I'm unfamiliar with that I'll consume then I'll tread cautiously.  Additionally, as long as you're willing to pay and wait, then US customers can get the bonafide product from Australia (and it sounds like it may hit US homebrewing markets this year at some point too).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:11:03 PM by stpug »

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2017, 08:18:28 PM »
On that note, I would still prefer to buy Anjinmoto's Brewtan B product because this is something I will eventually consume into my body.  If it was LED ropelights - alibaba FTW, but when it comes to stuff I'm unfamiliar with that I'll consume then I'll tread cautiously.  Additionally, as long as you're willing to pay and wait, then US customers can get the bonafide product from Australia (and it sounds like it may hit US homebrewing markets this year at some point too).

Agreed.
Jon H.