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Author Topic: Something stupid just happened 😡  (Read 4908 times)

Offline cdawson

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2017, 10:27:26 am »
I also use an S-type airlock when cold crashing but I also replace the star-san in the air lock with cheap vodka or clear rum. This way if it does suck back I know it won't hurt anything, but come to think of it, I don't think I have ever had one suck back. I just cold crash by sticking the carboy into my spare beer fridge.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2017, 10:41:47 am »
I find cold crashing to be much more convenient after racking to a keg.



Yep, same here. Takes suck back out of the equation.
Jon H.

Offline zwiller

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2017, 11:39:13 am »
While it takes suck back out the equation it adds all the suspended yeast.  ;D 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2017, 11:50:47 am »
Which will help prevent oxidation when transferring, and will settle out in the keg anyway. Pull a pint or two of dregs, no issues. Only works if you don't move the keg, but it works.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2017, 11:52:03 am »
While it takes suck back out the equation it adds all the suspended yeast.  ;D 


Yeah, it's a tradeoff. Less worry about oxygen sucked onto the beer's surface, more yeast. I'll say having spunded several beers, the amount of yeast is much less than spunding.
Jon H.

Offline zwiller

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2017, 12:22:38 pm »
Yep.  You guys convinced this extra attention is worth it yet?  Also, wouldn't there be enough active yeast to absorb suck back O2?  Try to decide what to do for a DH...
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2017, 12:53:30 pm »
Yep.  You guys convinced this extra attention is worth it yet?  Also, wouldn't there be enough active yeast to absorb suck back O2?  Try to decide what to do for a DH...


I never did a side by side to compare directly, but I just felt better about it and it became habit. Keeping O2 out of the process when possible obviously isn't a bad thing.
Jon H.

Offline BonacBrew

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2017, 02:42:03 pm »
Is dodecylbenzenesulfonoc acid a weak acid? I know it dissolves into water readily (of course because we use it as a sanitizer with water), and you can siphon chiller wort into a fermenter containing the foam. I also doubt a pH change would be noticeable because of the natural buffers in wort and the relative small volume it pulled back into the wort. The only issue I'd worry about is if you had krausen laced with some yeast, bubble out into the blowoff water (Which happens in furious fermenting) and then sucked back in, is that yeast and krausen contaminated or oxidized and will it harm your beer? Or was your starsan solution brand new? I am definitely not sure, but like everyone else said, bottle it up! Bad experiences make good beer sometimes!

Offline biestet

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2017, 04:50:20 am »
I read these forums often, but never post... you guys are a lot smarter brewers than me.

I'll just throw this out there on the subject of 'suckback' though, so no one thinks that because their airlock is full after a 30 degree temperature drop, nothing got in. 

As you cool the beer, no matter at what rate, you are going to suck oxygen in, and/or liquid in from your airlock. How much oxygen and/or liquid is solely dependent on the magnitude of the temperature change. The only other thing that can happen is a big pressure drop inside your fermenter if it's totally sealed, or in the case of plastic you might have it deform/collapse slightly. In either of those cases, you will have a rush of oxygen into your fermenter when you break the seal.

Whether that amount of oxygen, starsan, vodka, etc. getting in is ok, or whether it's better to keg, I'm not sure. Just wanted to make sure everyone understands what's going on (and if I was stating the obvious, I'm sorry).

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2017, 11:24:57 am »
I read these forums often, but never post... you guys are a lot smarter brewers than me.

I'll just throw this out there on the subject of 'suckback' though, so no one thinks that because their airlock is full after a 30 degree temperature drop, nothing got in. 

As you cool the beer, no matter at what rate, you are going to suck oxygen in, and/or liquid in from your airlock. How much oxygen and/or liquid is solely dependent on the magnitude of the temperature change. The only other thing that can happen is a big pressure drop inside your fermenter if it's totally sealed, or in the case of plastic you might have it deform/collapse slightly. In either of those cases, you will have a rush of oxygen into your fermenter when you break the seal.

Whether that amount of oxygen, starsan, vodka, etc. getting in is ok, or whether it's better to keg, I'm not sure. Just wanted to make sure everyone understands what's going on (and if I was stating the obvious, I'm sorry).

Not stating the obvious, but missing the alternative:  there should be no O2 suck back if you are displacing the vacuum with CO2.  That's what the keg transfer under CO2 is all about, I believe.  The space needs something to fill the displacement, but it can be CO2 rather than O2, right?
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2017, 11:33:43 am »
Yep.  You guys convinced this extra attention is worth it yet?  Also, wouldn't there be enough active yeast to absorb suck back O2?  Try to decide what to do for a DH...

I have stopped doing this (cold crashing in a carboy/fermenter with S airlock) all together after realizing that this can lead to oxidation notes in the finished product.

Offline Steve L

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 08:35:27 am »
On a side note, the brewjacket guys sell a blow off kit as an accessory that includes a one way check valve to prevent suck back. Not sure if you can get it anywhere else but their kit is like $6. Somebody may sell a similar device for cheap.

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Offline duelerx

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2017, 08:02:31 pm »
I am having the same dilema doing dry hop and cold crashing, what if the beer is transferred to a keg at the end of primary?, the benefit of a keg is that is sealed and there is no problem with cold crashing and transfer at the end of primary would help adding some oxygen to the yeast.

Offline SilverZero

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Re: Something stupid just happened 😡
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2017, 10:17:28 am »
I am having the same dilema doing dry hop and cold crashing, what if the beer is transferred to a keg at the end of primary?, the benefit of a keg is that is sealed and there is no problem with cold crashing and transfer at the end of primary would help adding some oxygen to the yeast.

The thing with this idea is that you'd have to transfer all of your yeast to even have a chance of them taking up the introduced oxygen, which would be a pain I think, and I don't think they'd be able to take it up anyway. If I'm understanding things correctly (big disclaimer) the yeast have multiplied so much at the end of primary that, assuming you oxygenated sufficiently to begin with, they'll be done with their log phase. The growth environment won't be as comfortable for them, so they won't really take up that extra oxygen. It's the same reason you sometimes have to step up a starter to get more yeast growth: At some point, the nutrients and oxygen are depleted and the environment isn't hospitable to growth anymore.

If you're fermenting in glass, you might have to choose between cold crashing and oxidation. When you cold crash, the gas volume in the headspace is going to shrink, that's just Charles' Law. You either have to let more gas in to make up the volume, or somehow maintain a lower internal pressure by sealing it. The alternative is to pressurize the fermenter before cold crashing so it drops back down to normal atmospheric pressure when it's cold, and I would be wary of trying to pressurize a glass fermenter (and if you're using a bucket I don't think you'll be able to prevent gas entering or exiting the lid).

If you're going to transfer to a keg anyway, why not ferment in the keg to begin with? That way you can either let it overpressurize a bit at the end of primary (spunding) or you can push CO2 in to relieve the internal vacuum after cold crashing.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 10:45:28 am by SilverZero »