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Author Topic: I can make some delicious wort  (Read 4644 times)

Offline majorvices

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 07:24:50 am »
Agree with Sean, sounds like a possible contamination issue. Though it could still also be an oxygen issue. Both would get progressively worse with time. Are you purging your kegs before racking?

Bring a small sealable container by the brewery and I'll give you some peracedic. Just don't get any full strength concentration on you.

Offline denny

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 10:05:42 am »
Agree with Sean, sounds like a possible contamination issue. Though it could still also be an oxygen issue. Both would get progressively worse with time. Are you purging your kegs before racking?

Bring a small sealable container by the brewery and I'll give you some peracedic. Just don't get any full strength concentration on you.

I'll third the contamination guess.
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Offline tommymorris

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I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 11:06:50 am »
I get the potential for contamination and will work on that (new hoses, deep soak fermenter and kegs).

There is one area where I am confused. On the oxidation front: I purge my kegs with CO2 but then open the lid and use gravity to fill the keg through a spigot on the fermenter. There is oxygen exposure no doubt. Are you saying the oxygen is turning diacetyl precursor into diacetyl or that I am confusing oxidized beer with diacetyl? I am sure both are possible. I have always assumed a good diacetyl rest would convert all the diacetyl precursor and allow yeast to consume it. This is supposed to stop the later conversion of precursor to diacetyl because the precursor is supposed to be gone. Hence, my question. On ales fermented in the 60's I don't expect much precursor to be left.

I am looking at how to purge with a full keg of star san and then fill without opening the keg using gravity.  I have a plan. We will see if it works.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 11:29:54 am »
By the way: for the krausening of the Kölsch here is what I did. I had drank it down a from 2.5G to about 2.0G. I had a Helles in the fermenter that was just hitting high krausen. I took 24oz from the Helles and put it in the warmed keg and resealed. The keg has been sitting for 4 days at 65F in the basement. I put a pressure gauge on Day 1. Pressure has slowly climbed to 27 PSI. I plan to put back in fridge tonight (if pressure is stable) and sample tomorrow night.

If oxidation caused precursor to change to diacetyl then I expect that keg to have cleaned up and be stable since all diacetyl and oxygen should have been consumed by the krausen step. If this is a contamination issue I think the diacetyl flavor will still be there and may have gotten worse.

Thoughts?


Offline Steve L

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 11:52:39 am »
Not to imply that this is the definitive cause but just another facet to consider along with contamination.... I found this in a 1993 George Fix article on Diacetyl, Which turned out to be the problem I was having. My diacetyl problems would show up in the bottle but after cold conditioning for a few weeks, would mostly disappear.

"The reaction acetolactic acid -> diacetyl is of the redox type (2). Acetolactic acid is oxidized to diacetyl, and other constituents (for example, various aldehydes as well as wort-derived melanoidins and tannins) are reduced. In all of the mechanisms described so far in this article, this is done enzymatically by microbes, culture yeast, and, in adverse cases, by other guests in our worts. The reaction can occur nonenzymatically, however, in the presence of an appropriate oxidizing agent. Indeed, a widely observed but little discussed phenomenon occurs when diacetyl appears spontaneously in a beer that seemed to have normal flavors. Strong evidence indicates that this can occur when marginally dysfunctional yeast have been used in the main fermentation -- they tend not to metabolize all the acetolactic acid in the wort. The acetolactic acid spills over into the finished beer and later is oxidized to diacetyl. Mechanical abuse of packaged beer can promote this; headspace air is the oxidizing agent. Elevated temperatures augment the effect. I have seen cases in which wort constituents (melanoidins and tannins), oxidized on the hot side in wort production, were passed on to the final beer, only to play the role of oxidizer there."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 11:55:26 am by Steve L »
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 05:01:17 pm »
Not to imply that this is the definitive cause but just another facet to consider along with contamination.... I found this in a 1993 George Fix article on Diacetyl, Which turned out to be the problem I was having. My diacetyl problems would show up in the bottle but after cold conditioning for a few weeks, would mostly disappear.

"The reaction acetolactic acid -> diacetyl is of the redox type (2). Acetolactic acid is oxidized to diacetyl, and other constituents (for example, various aldehydes as well as wort-derived melanoidins and tannins) are reduced. In all of the mechanisms described so far in this article, this is done enzymatically by microbes, culture yeast, and, in adverse cases, by other guests in our worts. The reaction can occur nonenzymatically, however, in the presence of an appropriate oxidizing agent. Indeed, a widely observed but little discussed phenomenon occurs when diacetyl appears spontaneously in a beer that seemed to have normal flavors. Strong evidence indicates that this can occur when marginally dysfunctional yeast have been used in the main fermentation -- they tend not to metabolize all the acetolactic acid in the wort. The acetolactic acid spills over into the finished beer and later is oxidized to diacetyl. Mechanical abuse of packaged beer can promote this; headspace air is the oxidizing agent. Elevated temperatures augment the effect. I have seen cases in which wort constituents (melanoidins and tannins), oxidized on the hot side in wort production, were passed on to the final beer, only to play the role of oxidizer there."
This is interesting. I haven't heard of it before, but, I used a brand new tube of yeast on the Kölsch. Also, my packaged beer was not abused or exposed to excessive heat. Basically, cold crashed beer was transferred to a keg and then immediately moved 5 feet to my serving fridge.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2017, 05:10:01 pm »
Do you ferment in a plastic bucket?


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Offline tommymorris

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2017, 05:23:04 pm »
Do you ferment in a plastic bucket?


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I ferment in a plastic big mouth bubbler.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2017, 04:23:30 am »
I started tasting an off flavor in my beers until I switched to a stainless fermenter. Maybe a good cleaning and sanitizing will do it.


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Offline majorvices

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2017, 04:55:12 am »
Do you ferment in a plastic bucket?


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I ferment in a plastic big mouth bubbler.

Does it have a valve on it?

Offline denny

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2017, 08:34:49 am »
I started tasting an off flavor in my beers until I switched to a stainless fermenter. Maybe a good cleaning and sanitizing will do it.


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OTOH, I've used nothing but buckets for the last 12-14 years and have never had off flavors from it.
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2017, 11:59:28 am »
Do you ferment in a plastic bucket?


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I ferment in a plastic big mouth bubbler.

Does it have a valve on it?
There is a valve. I remove and clean that before filling.

I just bought some craftmeister alkaline brewery wash, new tubing, and Iodophor. I also got a $35 pin lock with QD's. I am going to experiment fermenting in that keg to see if I can cut oxygen out of the back end of my process. I'll be doing closed transfers into purged kegs also.

But, I may have just gotten sloppy on fermentation. I have been cutting the time in the fermenter lately.  I looked at my notes and the blonde was in the fermenter for just 6 days. That's including a 24 hour cold crash. That may not have been enough time for the yeast to clean up. I have noticed fast flocculating yeasts (WLP041 in this case) sometimes leave behind diacetyl and need a rest. I may have rushed it.

The Kolsch was in the fermenter 10 days. But, it took 36 hours to Krausen and then I cold crashed 24 hours on the back end. I wonder if that was too fast, also.

I am back in town tonight and will be trying my krausened Kolsch.

Offline BrewBama

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I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2017, 03:12:08 pm »
I started tasting an off flavor in my beers until I switched to a stainless fermenter. Maybe a good cleaning and sanitizing will do it.


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OTOH, I've used nothing but buckets for the last 12-14 years and have never had off flavors from it.

Cool!  I've not had that experience. ...even after a serious bleach bomb. Hopefully, the cleaning, sanitizing, using kegs, and slowing down the process will put Tommy's beer back on track.


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« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 03:22:43 pm by BrewBama »

Offline a10t2

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2017, 04:05:27 pm »
OTOH, I've used nothing but buckets for the last 12-14 years and have never had off flavors from it.

I have four buckets now but one of them is the original from the homebrew kit I got in 2004. I've been meaning to replace that one though; the plastic piece on the handle fell off and the metal really digs into my hand.
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Offline Badgerhead

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Re: I can make some delicious wort
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2017, 04:51:51 pm »
OTOH, I've used nothing but buckets for the last 12-14 years and have never had off flavors from it.

I have four buckets now but one of them is the original from the homebrew kit I got in 2004. I've been meaning to replace that one though; the plastic piece on the handle fell off and the metal really digs into my hand.

+1 for the bucket brigade