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Author Topic: Step mashing timing  (Read 13290 times)

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2017, 10:59:30 am »
honestly, not going to get heavily into matters of delivery, style and presentation grace, but you and thebrewery speak in absolutes more than anyone here. Just seems like you are criticizing denny for stuff you are guilty of doing. But again, I'm sure you make delicious beer and know your stuff, as do most here, It's just been my experience that criticism of your delivery and open-mindedness to things that go against your very established and regimented LODO procedures and beliefs fall on deaf ears.

Either way, all the best, have a beer for me this weekend, as I'm the DD for a wedding this weekend.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2017, 11:54:20 am »
Let's not forget.  Each and every one of us is a moron to somebody.  I'm certain I'm a moron to somebody, and I'm okay with that.  Live and let die kind of thang.   8)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Big Monk

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2017, 11:59:37 am »
At the end of the day i'm just advocating for balance. "This works for me but may not for you." "I have not had success with that but YMMV."
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 04:28:34 am by Big Monk »

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2017, 12:00:41 pm »
Meh.  Balance, or political correctness, or inclusiveness, or whatever you want to call it, is for sissies.  I have opinions and I'm not afraid to yell 'em like facts.  (Doh!  I'm sure I just offended half of you!  Oh well.   ;D )

EDIT: Okay, okay, I'm sorry.  I don't really 100% mean that.  But I also think we all just need thicker skins too.  Someone doesn't like something somebody says... whatever.  Faggeddaboudit.

And always, the "In my experience" and "YMMV" stuff should just go without saying.  No?  Some of us know every truth of the universe without any doubt whatsoever?  Yeah right.  The possibility that one person or another is wrong just goes without saying.  I don't care how many sources there are.  Soak it all up and figure it out for each one's self what seems plausible or not.  For newbs, I get it, they don't know who to trust.  Well, that's just part of being a newb.  We've all been there at some point.  It's called life.

</soapbox for the time being>
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 12:12:09 pm by dmtaylor »
Dave

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Big Monk

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 12:09:40 pm »
One thing I touched upon earlier but didn't elaborate on is the effect of actually stepping with direct heating at known rate, where you are actually sweeping through a range of temperatures on your way to the next rest point. I think there is something to be said about that.

I have only done an infusion step mash once, and the temperature stabilized rather quickly, meaning you reach the next rest temperature rather quickly. Definitely much quicker than the gradual climb. YMMV.

I want to clarify as well: I personally step mash and preferit but do not disregard single infusion. I will say that single infusion is bounded by step mashing, so its a win win!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 12:44:07 pm »
Personally I decoct sometimes for fun (decoction is a sort of step mashing process), but not because I think it actually does anything useful.  Just purely for the fun of it.  Makes life slightly more interesting, kind of, maybe.

I never ever step mash, like where I turn on the burner and either abruptly or gradually increase the temperature.  I don't do that.  I don't think it's "wrong" to do it, but I really can't help but question the value of the process.  I guess it could be just another version of "fun".

For the most part, I'm a slacker who chooses to waste time in various other ways besides dicking around with mash temperatures.

It's all good.  Whatever suits your fancy indeed.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2017, 12:58:50 pm »
You guys seem awfully sure that step mashing isn't beneficial...

Dozens of trials have led me to that conclusion.

Denny, you are smart enough to know that a finished product is greater than the sum of all its parts. Isolating single process variables often doesn't show the true potential when considered in concert with others.

EDIT: Infusion step mashing versus direct fire is something to consider as well. Actually ramping at a controlled rate to other rests is important.

With that said, everyone should be able to brew how they like. On the other hand, poo-poo'ing something with absolute certainty to other brewers is bad jujus IMHO.

perhaps your low oxygen website needs some revision then my friend.
Oh man... I sure hope this thread can spiral into the abyss of taunts and barbs like so many others. Maybe we can find new ways to say the same damn thing over and over again.




Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2017, 01:01:52 pm »
please see my post at the top of the second page for further.

The Beerery

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2017, 01:02:59 pm »
You guys do realize that if there was no benefit to the process, then the plethora of professional brewers who do them would be wasting tons of time and energy. Some of the brewers are brewing 4 or more times a day, and the energy and time savings(Paulaner recently made a hefty $$$$ change to allow them .05% more extract and allowing to add .5 brew sessions a week) would outweigh the lack of benefit. Or is this just another case of certain homebrewers knowing more than schooled professionals with experience, masters and doctorate degrees?

I would say that step to your hearts content OP. Stepped mashes yield more fermentables, more yeast nutrients, have much better foam stability, and better taste. This has been proved countless times by professionals, science and sensory panels. In my experience I find single infused beers lacking. YMMV.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 01:07:45 pm by The Beerery »

Big Monk

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2017, 01:05:45 pm »
One thing I was going to touch on and forgot: when I set up my new system I calculated ramp times using the equation from the Blichmann website with 1 °C/min and a reduce wattage on my burner. Turns out I actually just run it full tilt at 1300W and get the exact ramp times I need. Just an FYI.

I really don't know the full basis for the 1 °C/min ramping rate. Narziß mentions it. I believe Kunze references it. Even DeClerck states that ramp rate in "AToB". I can tell you that it provides a nice steady climb through the rests.

Offline denny

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 01:17:42 pm »
You guys do realize that if there was no benefit to the process, then the plethora of professional brewers who do them would be wasting tons of time and energy. Some of the brewers are brewing 4 or more times a day, and the energy and time savings(Paulaner recently made a hefty $$$$ change to allow them .05% more extract and allowing to add .5 brew sessions a week) would outweigh the lack of benefit. Or is this just another case of certain homebrewers knowing more than schooled professionals with experience, masters and doctorate degrees?

I would say that step to your hearts content OP. Stepped mashes yield more fermentables, more yeast nutrients, have much better foam stability, and better taste. This has been proved countless times by professionals, science and sensory panels. In my experience I find single infused beers lacking. YMMV.  ;)

Classic appeal to authority.  I'm not gonna do a step mash because a commercial brewer does them.  I'm gonna do it if I find a benefit to it.  I haven't and no amount of trying to put me down becasue I don't will change that.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2017, 01:41:37 pm »
I'll grant you this: The Germans (some, at least) are doing something right.  What it is exactly, I confess I don't know, and if it's complicated in any way, then I'll confess that personally I probably wouldn't care to spend much time at all to find out.  While I do have an engineering degree, I'll also confess I'm way more lazy than I might be detail-oriented.  Even if I was handed the perfect instructions and knew exactly all the right things to do, I am by my nature a classic f***up so I would certainly find some way to screw it up every single dang time.  So, personally, I suppose my attitude is defeatist.  If you're thinking that, you're right.  Meanwhile, I do always know that if I want to consume some really great German brews, I'll let someone else brew it for me.  You're all better at it than I am.  I'm not a great brewer and I never will be.  I'm way way way too dang lazy.  And I'm cool with that.  Many aren't cool with that.  More power to ya.  Personally I'm a little bit happier being really lazy.  Or ignorant.  Or whatever.  Yeah.... I pretty much suck in every respect.  Oh well.  Gotta respect the Germans though.  They generally do seem to know what they're doing better than I ever will.  Great for them.

Maybe it's better if I don't give advice anymore.  I dunno.  I mean, I know some stuff.  I know a lot of stuff.  But I do admit: I don't know everything, and I never will.

Happy brewing all.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

The Beerery

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2017, 01:45:16 pm »
You guys do realize that if there was no benefit to the process, then the plethora of professional brewers who do them would be wasting tons of time and energy. Some of the brewers are brewing 4 or more times a day, and the energy and time savings(Paulaner recently made a hefty $$$$ change to allow them .05% more extract and allowing to add .5 brew sessions a week) would outweigh the lack of benefit. Or is this just another case of certain homebrewers knowing more than schooled professionals with experience, masters and doctorate degrees?

I would say that step to your hearts content OP. Stepped mashes yield more fermentables, more yeast nutrients, have much better foam stability, and better taste. This has been proved countless times by professionals, science and sensory panels. In my experience I find single infused beers lacking. YMMV.  ;)

Classic appeal to authority.  I'm not gonna do a step mash because a commercial brewer does them.  I'm gonna do it if I find a benefit to it.  I haven't and no amount of trying to put me down becasue I don't will change that.

You completely missed the point to make this about yourself. When it was not one bit about you.
I stated its been proven in academics, and sensory analysis that step mashing matters, otherwise these establishments you fight with such fervor would NOT be doing them. Big brewing is a business and corners that can be cut are. If brewery A can cut HOURS off a brewday and the sheeple can't detect a difference, its being done. That was the point, the point was not me trying to force you to brew your beer a way you see fit.
As I have said 100 times, and will probably have to say 1000 more. Just cause one doesn't "believe" or see a "benefit" doesn't stop science no matter how bad you want it to.

The Beerery

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2017, 01:49:54 pm »
I'll grant you this: The Germans (some, at least) are doing something right.  What it is exactly, I confess I don't know, and if it's complicated in any way, then I'll confess that personally I probably wouldn't care to spend much time at all to find out.  While I do have an engineering degree, I'll also confess I'm way more lazy than I might be detail-oriented.  Even if I was handed the perfect instructions and knew exactly all the right things to do, I am by my nature a classic f***up so I would certainly find some way to screw it up every single dang time.  So, personally, I suppose my attitude is defeatist.  If you're thinking that, you're right.  Meanwhile, I do always know that if I want to consume some really great German brews, I'll let someone else brew it for me.  You're all better at it than I am.  I'm not a great brewer and I never will be.  I'm way way way too dang lazy.  And I'm cool with that.  Many aren't cool with that.  More power to ya.  Personally I'm a little bit happier being really lazy.  Or ignorant.  Or whatever.  Yeah.... I pretty much suck in every respect.  Oh well.  Gotta respect the Germans though.  They generally do seem to know what they're doing better than I ever will.  Great for them.

Maybe it's better if I don't give advice anymore.  I dunno.  I mean, I know some stuff.  I know a lot of stuff.  But I do admit: I don't know everything, and I never will.

Happy brewing all.

While I can literally give you the exact directions to replicate it, it is difficult and very easy to screw up. I mean its really not, but its not what you do today, so that makes it much more foreign and difficult. I can totally appreciate someone who can acknowledge and recognize where they stand. If you ever change your mind hit me up.  ;)

Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Step mashing timing
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2017, 02:22:52 pm »
You guys do realize that if there was no benefit to the process, then the plethora of professional brewers who do them would be wasting tons of time and energy. Some of the brewers are brewing 4 or more times a day, and the energy and time savings(Paulaner recently made a hefty $$$$ change to allow them .05% more extract and allowing to add .5 brew sessions a week) would outweigh the lack of benefit. Or is this just another case of certain homebrewers knowing more than schooled professionals with experience, masters and doctorate degrees?

I would say that step to your hearts content OP. Stepped mashes yield more fermentables, more yeast nutrients, have much better foam stability, and better taste. This has been proved countless times by professionals, science and sensory panels. In my experience I find single infused beers lacking. YMMV.  ;)
see my friend, a plethora of breweries don't do them either. You use breweries that do them as an all high example of superior beers, while discounting all the rest. Seek that which confirms and you're never wrong.

And I've heard some homebrewers proclaim to know more than professionals. If I recall, theres a thread on here of you contradicting Mr. Bamforth. Hell, your belief about step mashes contradicts a ton of professionals. By all  means, keep reading and agreeing with sources that confirm your beliefs, it's when you spout it off as supreme fact that gets you in trouble.