[tommymorris]

Hi,
I was listening the 'The Jamil Show' the other day.  He mentioned a 'fast lager' method which he uses successfully in competitions etc.  I forget the name he used for it.  I've looked, but can not find any references to this method - anyone on line know what the method is? where I can read up on it?

The method that i understand
1. start at 44*F, oxygenate and pitch
2. let rise to 50*F, hold and ferment for ~21 days (may be less, done when activity ceases)
3. rise to 68*F to clean up the diacetyl - about 3 days
4. ?then crash to 32*F for how long? or is this part necessary?

I've been brewing Ales for a long time, now have a ferment fridge, so want to brew some lagers.

Thanks,
Brian.

I don't find 21 days fast ( your step step 2).

I start at 48-ish and then start raising the temp 5 degrees per day at high krausen. High krausen is subjective. I try to make sure the fermentation is peaking (about 2 days after the krausen initially forms, very cloudy wort, churning in the fermenter, and lots of bubbles in the air lock).

Usually, I get to 64-65F as fermentation is winding down, but, while yeast is still in suspension. Visually, you see some movement of yeast in the beer but not rapid churning.  I leave the beer at this temp a week and then package. I have tried shorter rests, but, I don't know how short I can go without getting diacetyl. So, I recommend a week rest at 64-65F and experimenting on your own if you want to go shorter.

In total, I can easily go 14 days grain to glass and I believe others when they say they can successfully go faster.

PS. Grain to glass is not the same as properly conditioned for me. My lagers keep improving for a 2-3 weeks in the keg before they are as crisp and delicious as they can get. Sad thing is, I usually don't wait 2-3 weeks. I start drinking them very young.

[bbt95762]

sounds like you guys are suggesting that the 50*F step should be about 5-7 days, and no need for Diacetyl rest or lagering - right?

this is awesome and saves all kinds of time.

Thanks,
Brian.

[tommymorris]

sounds like you guys are suggesting that the 50*F step should be about 5-7 days, and no need for Diacetyl rest or lagering - right?

this is awesome and saves all kinds of time.

Thanks,
Brian.

Any time above 64F is a diacetyl rest. Diacetyl precursor turns into diacetyl around 64F. Once it is diacetyl, yeast can eat it. The process works best if the diacetyl rest happens when the yeast is still in suspension.

PS. In my experience you need the rest as fermentation ends and at least a few days after fermentation ends.

[The Beerery]

When pitching a healthy amount of fresh and active yeast, diacetyl is not a thing( I mean it IS a thing but the yeast naturally take care of it). 

The traditional cold fermentation profile taught in professional German brewing is that you start at 45f and once you reach 40% extract remaining you LOWER temp so that you reach FG at lagering temps.  Even the warm ferment never gets above low 50's. 

This "accelerated" profile that is preached here is actually wrong, this profile originally taught by Nariß, states that in order to use this accelerated profile you need to be using large CCV's (cylindrical conical vessels, conicals for short) and that hydrostatic pressures and/or fermenting under co2 pressure play a role on ester production (or lack there of). I know this because I translated the 600 page book to English.


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[denny]

When pitching a healthy amount of fresh and active yeast, diacetyl is not a thing( I mean it IS a thing but the yeast naturally take care of it). 

The traditional cold fermentation profile taught in professional German brewing is that you start at 45f and once you reach 40% extract remaining you LOWER temp so that you reach FG at lagering temps.  Even the warm ferment never gets above low 50's. 

This "accelerated" profile that is preached here is actually wrong, this profile originally taught by Nariß, states that in order to use this accelerated profile you need to be using large CCV's (cylindrical conical vessels, conicals for short) and that hydrostatic pressures and/or fermenting under co2 pressure play a role on ester production (or lack there of). I know this because I translated the 600 page book to English.




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How can it be wrong if it works?

[The Beerery]

When pitching a healthy amount of fresh and active yeast, diacetyl is not a thing( I mean it IS a thing but the yeast naturally take care of it). 

The traditional cold fermentation profile taught in professional German brewing is that you start at 45f and once you reach 40% extract remaining you LOWER temp so that you reach FG at lagering temps.  Even the warm ferment never gets above low 50's. 

This "accelerated" profile that is preached here is actually wrong, this profile originally taught by Nariß, states that in order to use this accelerated profile you need to be using large CCV's (cylindrical conical vessels, conicals for short) and that hydrostatic pressures and/or fermenting under co2 pressure play a role on ester production (or lack there of). I know this because I translated the 600 page book to English.




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How can it be wrong if it works?

Works to produce ale and bland tasting lagers with lager yeast, AKA american lagers...sure. Continental lagers...uhh no.. Bread yeast also "works" to ferment sugar, but I don't see that called for in your BVIP recipe. That argument falls on deaf ears here.

[denny]

Works to produce ale and bland tasting lagers with lager yeast, AKA american lagers...sure. Continental lagers...uhh no.. Bread yeast also "works" to ferment sugar, but I don't see that called for in your BVIP recipe. That argument falls on deaf ears here.

So you're passing judgement on thousands of beers without tasting them? 

[The Beerery]

Works to produce ale and bland tasting lagers with lager yeast, AKA american lagers...sure. Continental lagers...uhh no.. Bread yeast also "works" to ferment sugar, but I don't see that called for in your BVIP recipe. That argument falls on deaf ears here.

So you're passing judgement on thousands of beers without tasting them?

Sure, I would love to be proved wrong. I can probably count on one hand American made (Not Continental and has a brewery here) lager that can hold a candle to its continental counterpart. "Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not."

You sure like to dodge my questions.. 

Can I use bread yeast in your rye ipa, to make the beer in the recipe you created? I mean it works.. So it has to be right, is that correct deduction using your logic?

Not everything in this world can be solved with a wreaking ball. Sometimes you need a hammer and chisel.

So I guess the question that begs to be answered is..
Why use the "quick lager method", when its neither quicker, or easier, or in the right context than the taught method? Not only that but it's proven by lab analysis and sensory panels to be better for the flavor and stability of the beer.

[denny]

I use the quick lager method because it works for me to make great beer.  Your methods has drawbacks I'm not interested in.  You're free to use any method you like, but don't denigrate someone else's methods until you've tried the beer.  Don't insult people by telling them they don't know what a continental lager tastes like.  Trying to equate it to using bread yeast is a false equivalency. 

[BrewBama]

"Sure, I would love to be proved wrong. I can probably count on one hand American made (Not Continental and has a brewery here) lager that can hold a candle to its continental counterpart."

While I agree that Continental Lagers are awesome compared to American Lagers, that's an opinion not shared by most people in the world. Only Heineken breaks into the top ten in worldwide sales while three American beers make the top ten.  I believe this proves you wrong:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-21/the-world-s-top-10-beers 

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-biggest-selling-beer-brands-globally-2016-5/#10-coors-light-global-beer-volume-market-share-13-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-beers-in-the-world-2017-4

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[The Beerery]

"Sure, I would love to be proved wrong. I can probably count on one hand American made (Not Continental and has a brewery here) lager that can hold a candle to its continental counterpart."

While I agree that Continental Lagers are awesome compared to American Lagers, that's an opinion not shared by most people in the world. Only Heineken breaks into the top ten in worldwide sales while three American beers make the top ten.  I believe this proves you wrong:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-21/the-world-s-top-10-beers 

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-biggest-selling-beer-brands-globally-2016-5/#10-coors-light-global-beer-volume-market-share-13-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-beers-in-the-world-2017-4

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Actually proves me right!

My one count on one hand where bud/miller/coors! I still have a few in reserve, to see if anyone says them.
 

[BrewBama]

"Sure, I would love to be proved wrong. I can probably count on one hand American made (Not Continental and has a brewery here) lager that can hold a candle to its continental counterpart."

While I agree that Continental Lagers are awesome compared to American Lagers, that's an opinion not shared by most people in the world. Only Heineken breaks into the top ten in worldwide sales while three American beers make the top ten.  I believe this proves you wrong:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-21/the-world-s-top-10-beers 

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-biggest-selling-beer-brands-globally-2016-5/#10-coors-light-global-beer-volume-market-share-13-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-beers-in-the-world-2017-4

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Actually proves me right!

My one count on one hand where bud/miller/coors! I still have a few in reserve, to see if anyone says them.
 

LOL. You crack me up.  Never give in.  Cheers!


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[Iliff Ave]

Good to see things back to normal around here... 

[Big Monk]

Good to see things back to normal around here... 

If you mean sarcastic belly-aching and emojis from the natives then yes.

[Iliff Ave]

Good to see things back to normal around here... 

If you mean sarcastic belly-aching and emojis from the natives then yes.

You nailed it! Just an observation from an outsider.