[Big Monk]

Of course that's compounded even further by the fact that fun, and easy, are subjective terms.

Of course, but again don't let your own thoughts color your view of the rest of the brewing world.  We are not representative of many, maybe most, homebrewers.  We are dedicated, addicted followers who love to geek out.  But we are also only a small part of the hobby.

Yeah but this issue is not addressing Joe Homebrewer. It's addressing the niche of the niche. It's posters here saying they feel they don't want to post.

I guess people just have to now preface their posts with, "I'm not looking for X type of answers, only Y type." What else is there to do? You have to parse potential responses by preemptively asking certain people to not comment? I have a feeling people around here are more thick skinned than that.

[homoeccentricus]

This is how my cynical, simplistic and possibly semi-paranoid mind perceives the situation: it is the mission of the AHA forum to bring brewing to the masses, and the discussion of very advanced techniques, especially the ones that go against the implicit consensus, is discouraged, as they only would confuse said masses.

Nope, not at all....the AHA exists to serve homebrewers of all levels and persuasions.  I think you're making "very advanced techniques" seem more radical than they really are.  I know I didn't say that very well.  And I'm not sure there is anything approaching an "implicit consensus".

That's a pity because it was the friendliest explanation I had. There is definitely something more going on than "let's all be a bit nicer to each other, and all will be well."

[denny]

This is how my cynical, simplistic and possibly semi-paranoid mind perceives the situation: it is the mission of the AHA forum to bring brewing to the masses, and the discussion of very advanced techniques, especially the ones that go against the implicit consensus, is discouraged, as they only would confuse said masses.

Nope, not at all....the AHA exists to serve homebrewers of all levels and persuasions.  I think you're making "very advanced techniques" seem more radical than they really are.  I know I didn't say that very well.  And I'm not sure there is anything approaching an "implicit consensus".

That's a pity because it was the friendliest explanation I had. There is definitely something more going on than "let's all be a bit nicer to each other, and all will be well."

If there is, it's not coming from the AHA.  There are no ulterior motives.

[denny]

Of course that's compounded even further by the fact that fun, and easy, are subjective terms.

Of course, but again don't let your own thoughts color your view of the rest of the brewing world.  We are not representative of many, maybe most, homebrewers.  We are dedicated, addicted followers who love to geek out.  But we are also only a small part of the hobby.

Yeah but this issue is not addressing Joe Homebrewer. It's addressing the niche of the niche. It's posters here saying they feel they don't want to post.

I guess people just have to now preface their posts with, "I'm not looking for X type of answers, only Y type." What else is there to do? You have to parse potential responses by preemptively asking certain people to not comment? I have a feeling people around here are more thick skinned than that.

From my perspective, it's how the answers are phrased rather than the answers themselves.

[Big Monk]

Of course that's compounded even further by the fact that fun, and easy, are subjective terms.

Of course, but again don't let your own thoughts color your view of the rest of the brewing world.  We are not representative of many, maybe most, homebrewers.  We are dedicated, addicted followers who love to geek out.  But we are also only a small part of the hobby.

Yeah but this issue is not addressing Joe Homebrewer. It's addressing the niche of the niche. It's posters here saying they feel they don't want to post.

I guess people just have to now preface their posts with, "I'm not looking for X type of answers, only Y type." What else is there to do? You have to parse potential responses by preemptively asking certain people to not comment? I have a feeling people around here are more thick skinned than that.

From my perspective, it's how the answers are phrased rather than the answers themselves.

If it's about delivery rather than content, that's even more reason for people around here to "buck up".

[denny]

If it's about delivery rather than content, that's even more reason for people around here to "buck up".

And for anyone who posts to be aware of how their post comes across.  It works both ways.

[homoeccentricus]

This is how my cynical, simplistic and possibly semi-paranoid mind perceives the situation: it is the mission of the AHA forum to bring brewing to the masses, and the discussion of very advanced techniques, especially the ones that go against the implicit consensus, is discouraged, as they only would confuse said masses.

Nope, not at all....the AHA exists to serve homebrewers of all levels and persuasions.  I think you're making "very advanced techniques" seem more radical than they really are.  I know I didn't say that very well.  And I'm not sure there is anything approaching an "implicit consensus".

That's a pity because it was the friendliest explanation I had. There is definitely something more going on than "let's all be a bit nicer to each other, and all will be well."

If there is, it's not coming from the AHA.  There are no ulterior motives.

Maybe it's coming all the way from the top. These fake homebrewers are bad, very bad.

[The Beerery]

Don't play the victim here Denny. Since the DAY we brought information about oxidation forward you have been hellbent on trying to disprove modern brewing science. I have people everywhere I know exactly what goes on behind the scenes.  Your bias shows on nearly every post.  I am still confused how you were so against it but now endorse a product used solely to combat it. Has your stance now changed or!?

I would also still love to hear the reasoning why so many low oxygen presentations didn't get accepted for HBC here, even though you claim there is no shenanigans, things don't add up.

I have said countless times that I brewed nearly 1000 batches of beer using EVERY method under the sun. I made good beer, hell, great beer by homebrewing standards and I have boxes of medals to prove it. I would have to go back and count but I am at probably 300+ batches trying these new methods and feel my beers have gone to another level. But some how my "experience" doesn't seem to hold a candle to others who have brewed 1/3rd of the batches. I have walked on both sides of the line, that somehow seems to be easily "forgotten". You WILL make better beers with the less amount of oxygen you include in your brewing practices. It's LITERALLY a proven fact.

Everyone is so sensitive. There will always be a better way and someone smarter than you. The faster you realizes that the easier life is.

There will always be ways to make better beer, now whether you chose to do them is up to the person. I have literally been laughed out of the room, because the methods I used and in the eyes of real brewmasters it's laughable. I don't disagree I a dude who tinkers in my basement, I use hacks and workarounds and do to the best of my ability. Maybe it's the character of the person but that only drives me personally to get better. 

More recently I am fully RHG compliant, I don't use sulfites anymore, I gas my grist, vessels and piping with nitrogen and employ as many techniques of the professionals I can. That is "fun" for me, to constantly push the envelope and turn out beers in my basement that rival the best in the world.  To each their own. What doesn't sit well with me is folks too stubborn to learn.  You are never too old to get better. Now if you chose to be happy with the methods you (these are all proverbial you's) use that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't stop the facts that your beer CAN improve. If that wasn't the case modern brewing science would have stopped instead of be currently flourishing. I don't care what methods a person chooses, it's the discrediting that irritates me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HoosierBrew]

If it's about delivery rather than content, that's even more reason for people around here to "buck up".

And for anyone who posts to be aware of how their post comes across.  It works both ways.

I agree.

[Stevie]

From my perspective, more brewers are getting more technical and complex in their process than I had seen in the past. I'm seeing way more all-grain brewers, way more multi-step mashes, way more water knowledge, way more fly spargeers, way more sour brewers.

I think my current club has two or three batch spargers. My last two clubs only had me.

[Andy Farke]

A few thoughts, having read through this thread...

One thing to keep in mind: not everyone has infinite brew dollars, brewery space, or time. Truth be told, I _have_ sometimes seen answers here that come across as: "Sink another $10,000 in your brewing setup, and make 50 batches in the next three weeks, and replumb your house for this style of kettle." Thankfully, these are rare, but when they do happen they are a bit off-putting even for those of us who have skills and confidence.

I am totally fine with the fact that some in our hobby choose to go to the max in every facet of their brewery! Knock yourselves out. Many of them are making excellent beer. The problem is when a tiny fraction of these individuals imply (intentionally or not--tone matters, people) that anyone who doesn't do it their way is a lesser brewer. (yes, yes, I know that isn't anyone's exact words--but again, tone matters) This sends a message to that person who can only afford to brew a few extract batches yearly on their tiny apartment stove that they are not welcome. That's not the homebrew community I want.

This is not to say I advocate a willy-nilly approach to brewing either...good technique makes good beer. I don't want us to all post at the lowest common denominator (I _love_ geeky techniques and science discussions), but in any case a little empathy goes a long ways.

So my most constructive advice? I try to think for 30 seconds before I hit "send." Is my comment practical? Do I qualify advice appropriately in recognition of various levels of brewing experience? Are there more than one ways to get to a particular point?

[narcout]

My perception is that it is rare here.

A year ago or so, I would have agreed with you, but the culture here has changed since then (in my opinion anyway).

There may be others. I may be the only one and need to simply disappear. Who knows.

Going by some of the posters who have disappeared recently (klickitatjim, beersk, etc.), I do not think you are alone.

Do I qualify advice appropriately in recognition of various levels of brewing experience?

That's a very good point.  I don't know how else it's possible to have a forum that is valuable for beginners, very advanced brewers, and everyone in between.

I really like this forum, but I also like the forum over at lowoxygenbrewing.  I'll post questions on one over the other depending on the subject.

[chezteth]

I'm unsure why BrewBama decided not to post his question. I, so far, have not been discouraged from posting any of my own questions. I understand heated debates. I guess for me it seems they sometimes go too far. In those cases, I guess I need to stop reading those particular threads.

The biggest concern I have is when a new / first time poster posts a question and it gets severely derailed. I don't remember the exact post. If I remember correctly it had to do with step mashing for the member's first all-grain brew. The way the thread went could definitely scare people away. When BrewBama posted this thread I felt compelled to speak up. I want to see this forum grow. This includes with new / different methods as well as new members.
edit: existing members shouldn't feel apprehensive about posting a question, either. We are here to help all levels of homebrewers.

[HoosierBrew]

We don't all need to agree on everything, but for goodness sake, I would hope that we all agree that everyone can (and should) feel free to post questions. As was mentioned, having a forum for people of all skill levels and goals isn't always a smooth ride, but it's worth the effort.

[majorvices]

I have become a complete lurker. These days I'm mostly interested in low oxygen techniques, because I have the impression that they improve my beers a lot. Unfortunately for me this is not a safe place to discuss them, so I have to go elsewhere.

That's interesting to me, because from my perspective I feel often I can't post something about my particular brewing techniques without them being critiqued (usually negatively) by  one or two members of the "lodo nazis" ... as it were.

Does it happen sometimes the other way around? Yep. Sure does. No doubt about that. But look at it from another perspective: The AHA forum is a forum dedicated to every level of homebrewing. But when a certain crowd comes in and argues with experienced and even award winning brewers that their brewing methods are subpar based on another method, that starts to get old real quick. And it works to drive new brewers away. And even experienced brewers who want to discuss topics without endless bickering.

There are certain approaches to brewing that certainly make huge improvements to anyone's beer. And those have been the items we have all been trying to steer new brewers toward when they ask questions. But when one or two members of the forum come in and start to derail threads based on methods that, well let's just be honest .... haven't quite worked for everyone ... then it drives everyone away.

Not everyone who wants to attempt to brew beer needs a master's degree in chemistry. And not every little nuance that is insisted upon is going to make award winning beer.

Some of us feel you can still make great beer with a copper wort chiller.