[Big Monk]

I'm unsure why BrewBama decided not to post his question. I, so far, have not been discouraged from posting any of my own questions. I understand heated debates. I guess for me it seems they sometimes go too far. In those cases, I guess I need to stop reading those particular threads.

The biggest concern I have is when a new / first time poster posts a question and it gets severely derailed. I don't remember the exact post. If I remember correctly it had to do with step mashing for the member's first all-grain brew. The way the thread went could definitely scare people away. When BrewBama posted this thread I felt compelled to speak up. I want to see this forum grow. This includes with new / different methods as well as new members.
edit: existing members shouldn't feel apprehensive about posting a question, either. We are here to help all levels of homebrewers.

You it's funny that you mention that thread because it's an interesting case: a guy asks advice about step mashing, people assume that because it's his 1st all grain brew that he needs to be "talked off the ledge" and nonsense ensued.

Do you know what was funny about that one? The guy posted again stating that it was his 1st AG brew by HIMSELF, and that he had dozens of co-brews, observations, etc. under his belt. He PM'd both me and Bryan thanking us for answering his question and not trying to talk him out of it.

[majorvices]

Don't play the victim here Denny. Since the DAY we brought information about oxidation forward you have been hellbent on trying to disprove modern brewing science. I have people everywhere I know exactly what goes on behind the scenes.  Your bias shows on nearly every post.  I am still confused how you were so against it but now endorse a product used solely to combat it. Has your stance now changed or!?

I would also still love to hear the reasoning why so many low oxygen presentations didn't get accepted for HBC here, even though you claim there is no shenanigans, things don't add up.

I have said countless times that I brewed nearly 1000 batches of beer using EVERY method under the sun. I made good beer, hell, great beer by homebrewing standards and I have boxes of medals to prove it. I would have to go back and count but I am at probably 300+ batches trying these new methods and feel my beers have gone to another level. But some how my "experience" doesn't seem to hold a candle to others who have brewed 1/3rd of the batches. I have walked on both sides of the line, that somehow seems to be easily "forgotten". You WILL make better beers with the less amount of oxygen you include in your brewing practices. It's LITERALLY a proven fact.

Everyone is so sensitive. There will always be a better way and someone smarter than you. The faster you realizes that the easier life is.

There will always be ways to make better beer, now whether you chose to do them is up to the person. I have literally been laughed out of the room, because the methods I used and in the eyes of real brewmasters it's laughable. I don't disagree I a dude who tinkers in my basement, I use hacks and workarounds and do to the best of my ability. Maybe it's the character of the person but that only drives me personally to get better. 

More recently I am fully RHG compliant, I don't use sulfites anymore, I gas my grist, vessels and piping with nitrogen and employ as many techniques of the professionals I can. That is "fun" for me, to constantly push the envelope and turn out beers in my basement that rival the best in the world.  To each their own. What doesn't sit well with me is folks too stubborn to learn.  You are never too old to get better. Now if you chose to be happy with the methods you (these are all proverbial you's) use that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't stop the facts that your beer CAN improve. If that wasn't the case modern brewing science would have stopped instead of be currently flourishing. I don't care what methods a person chooses, it's the discrediting that irritates me.


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Once again your presentation is problematic. You have really been the catalyst of every recent problem this forum has had. And NEVER has it been from your information. ALWAYS from you delivery.

[Big Monk]

I have become a complete lurker. These days I'm mostly interested in low oxygen techniques, because I have the impression that they improve my beers a lot. Unfortunately for me this is not a safe place to discuss them, so I have to go elsewhere.

That's interesting to me, because from my perspective I feel often I can't post something about my particular brewing techniques without them being critiqued (usually negatively) by  one or two members of the "lodo nazis" ... as it were.

Does it happen sometimes the other way around? Yep. Sure does. No doubt about that. But look at it from another perspective: The AHA forum is a forum dedicated to every level of homebrewing. But when a certain crowd comes in and argues with experienced and even award winning brewers that their brewing methods are subpar based on another method, that starts to get old real quick. And it works to drive new brewers away. And even experienced brewers who want to discuss topics without endless bickering.

There are certain approaches to brewing that certainly make huge improvements to anyone's beer. And those have been the items we have all been trying to steer new brewers toward when they ask questions. But when one or two members of the forum come in and start to derail threads based on methods that, well let's just be honest .... haven't quite worked for everyone ... then it drives everyone away.

Not everyone who wants to attempt to brew beer needs a master's degree in chemistry. And not every little nuance that is insisted upon is going to make award winning beer.

Some of us feel you can still make great beer with a copper wort chiller.

Nazis? As someone who was on the other side of the whole Low Oxygen thing, and who used the term "Lager Nazis" to describe them, I can say from experience: it's a dick move.

[majorvices]

I have become a complete lurker. These days I'm mostly interested in low oxygen techniques, because I have the impression that they improve my beers a lot. Unfortunately for me this is not a safe place to discuss them, so I have to go elsewhere.

That's interesting to me, because from my perspective I feel often I can't post something about my particular brewing techniques without them being critiqued (usually negatively) by  one or two members of the "lodo nazis" ... as it were.

Does it happen sometimes the other way around? Yep. Sure does. No doubt about that. But look at it from another perspective: The AHA forum is a forum dedicated to every level of homebrewing. But when a certain crowd comes in and argues with experienced and even award winning brewers that their brewing methods are subpar based on another method, that starts to get old real quick. And it works to drive new brewers away. And even experienced brewers who want to discuss topics without endless bickering.

There are certain approaches to brewing that certainly make huge improvements to anyone's beer. And those have been the items we have all been trying to steer new brewers toward when they ask questions. But when one or two members of the forum come in and start to derail threads based on methods that, well let's just be honest .... haven't quite worked for everyone ... then it drives everyone away.

Not everyone who wants to attempt to brew beer needs a master's degree in chemistry. And not every little nuance that is insisted upon is going to make award winning beer.

Some of us feel you can still make great beer with a copper wort chiller.

Nazis? As someone who was on the other side of the whole Low Oxygen thing, and who used the term "Lager Nazis" to describe them, I can say from experience: it's a dick move.

Oh give me a break. We talk about people being "style nazis" all the time. The LODO "fanatics" sounds better? YOu guys are convinced that your method is the only method that makes great beer. And that is great! But the way some of you try to act as if it is the ONLY way to make great beer makes it over the top. And is the reason we have people afraid to post here. And, obviously, it goes both ways as far as arguments goes. ((In other words, people arguing with you about your methods.)

Now, calling people "dicks" approaches "banable" offenses.

[chezteth]

You it's funny that you mention that thread because it's an interesting case: a guy asks advice about step mashing, people assume that because it's his 1st all grain brew that he needs to be "talked off the ledge" and nonsense ensued.

Do you know what was funny about that one? The guy posted again stating that it was his 1st AG brew by HIMSELF, and that he had dozens of co-brews, observations, etc. under his belt. He PM'd both me and Bryan thanking us for answering his question and not trying to talk him out of it.

I guess it was my impression how that thread came across. That particular topic was getting rather heated considering it was a new member. For that I worry how it can come across. I understand why many replies were trying to steer him away from doing a step mash for his first AG.  I am glad to hear, for that particular case, that he was able to be reassured of what he was planning. I still have a few things to learn about teaching others how to brew as well.

[The Beerery]

Don't play the victim here Denny. Since the DAY we brought information about oxidation forward you have been hellbent on trying to disprove modern brewing science. I have people everywhere I know exactly what goes on behind the scenes.  Your bias shows on nearly every post.  I am still confused how you were so against it but now endorse a product used solely to combat it. Has your stance now changed or!?

I would also still love to hear the reasoning why so many low oxygen presentations didn't get accepted for HBC here, even though you claim there is no shenanigans, things don't add up.

I have said countless times that I brewed nearly 1000 batches of beer using EVERY method under the sun. I made good beer, hell, great beer by homebrewing standards and I have boxes of medals to prove it. I would have to go back and count but I am at probably 300+ batches trying these new methods and feel my beers have gone to another level. But some how my "experience" doesn't seem to hold a candle to others who have brewed 1/3rd of the batches. I have walked on both sides of the line, that somehow seems to be easily "forgotten". You WILL make better beers with the less amount of oxygen you include in your brewing practices. It's LITERALLY a proven fact.

Everyone is so sensitive. There will always be a better way and someone smarter than you. The faster you realizes that the easier life is.

There will always be ways to make better beer, now whether you chose to do them is up to the person. I have literally been laughed out of the room, because the methods I used and in the eyes of real brewmasters it's laughable. I don't disagree I a dude who tinkers in my basement, I use hacks and workarounds and do to the best of my ability. Maybe it's the character of the person but that only drives me personally to get better. 

More recently I am fully RHG compliant, I don't use sulfites anymore, I gas my grist, vessels and piping with nitrogen and employ as many techniques of the professionals I can. That is "fun" for me, to constantly push the envelope and turn out beers in my basement that rival the best in the world.  To each their own. What doesn't sit well with me is folks too stubborn to learn.  You are never too old to get better. Now if you chose to be happy with the methods you (these are all proverbial you's) use that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't stop the facts that your beer CAN improve. If that wasn't the case modern brewing science would have stopped instead of be currently flourishing. I don't care what methods a person chooses, it's the discrediting that irritates me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once again your presentation is problematic. You have really been the catalyst of every recent problem this forum has had. And NEVER has it been from your information. ALWAYS from you delivery.

Oh yea?!  Sure. You are completely innocent I assume with your condescending nazi terms?  It's ok for you to down talk and discredit?  Interesting. 


Let's flip this scrip. Every time I post I feel someone is coming in to discredit my posts, and it's usually "upper management". So I think it's unfair for anyone interested in low oxygen brewing to get a fair shake here.

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[majorvices]

Don't play the victim here Denny. Since the DAY we brought information about oxidation forward you have been hellbent on trying to disprove modern brewing science. I have people everywhere I know exactly what goes on behind the scenes.  Your bias shows on nearly every post.  I am still confused how you were so against it but now endorse a product used solely to combat it. Has your stance now changed or!?

I would also still love to hear the reasoning why so many low oxygen presentations didn't get accepted for HBC here, even though you claim there is no shenanigans, things don't add up.

I have said countless times that I brewed nearly 1000 batches of beer using EVERY method under the sun. I made good beer, hell, great beer by homebrewing standards and I have boxes of medals to prove it. I would have to go back and count but I am at probably 300+ batches trying these new methods and feel my beers have gone to another level. But some how my "experience" doesn't seem to hold a candle to others who have brewed 1/3rd of the batches. I have walked on both sides of the line, that somehow seems to be easily "forgotten". You WILL make better beers with the less amount of oxygen you include in your brewing practices. It's LITERALLY a proven fact.

Everyone is so sensitive. There will always be a better way and someone smarter than you. The faster you realizes that the easier life is.

There will always be ways to make better beer, now whether you chose to do them is up to the person. I have literally been laughed out of the room, because the methods I used and in the eyes of real brewmasters it's laughable. I don't disagree I a dude who tinkers in my basement, I use hacks and workarounds and do to the best of my ability. Maybe it's the character of the person but that only drives me personally to get better. 

More recently I am fully RHG compliant, I don't use sulfites anymore, I gas my grist, vessels and piping with nitrogen and employ as many techniques of the professionals I can. That is "fun" for me, to constantly push the envelope and turn out beers in my basement that rival the best in the world.  To each their own. What doesn't sit well with me is folks too stubborn to learn.  You are never too old to get better. Now if you chose to be happy with the methods you (these are all proverbial you's) use that's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't stop the facts that your beer CAN improve. If that wasn't the case modern brewing science would have stopped instead of be currently flourishing. I don't care what methods a person chooses, it's the discrediting that irritates me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once again your presentation is problematic. You have really been the catalyst of every recent problem this forum has had. And NEVER has it been from your information. ALWAYS from you delivery.

Oh yea?!  Sure. You are completely innocent I assume with your condescending nazi terms?  It's ok for you to down talk and discredit?  Interesting. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have never discredited your brewing techniques, Bryan. But I am discrediting your presentation.... and it's always been bad. That said, there have been some who have tried the method and have found it didn't work for them. I haven't tried it but. I'm sure your beer is delicious. Your attitude though? It really sucks.

[Iliff Ave]

I personally post less frequently. When a topic I started gets off topic I normally just remove it. I have also refrained from starting posts on certain hot button topics. I am an intermediate level brewer who doesn't really have an opinion on the main topic of disagreement these days so it gets a little frustrating to say the least. It's nice that the most helpful around here are usually willing to provide opinions and feedback via private message.

[The Beerery]

How can anyone who hasn't tried it even form an opinion on a subject anyways.  Sounds like a dead on example of confirmation bias.  Why do these same people WHO HAVE NOT TRIED IT always give opinions on the matter after I post with my EXPERIENCE. If these same people who have not tried it would not engage in conversations that they have not even tried. This would be a happier place.

I have zero attitude. If you perceive it that way, i don't know.

For the 1000000th time.
I DON'T CARE HOW YOU BREW, however, IT CAN ALWAYS BE BETTER. 

I guess there's my attitude. It's black and white.

 So again... I DON'T CARE HOW YOU BREW, however, IT CAN ALWAYS BE BETTER and my posts are always about how to make that happen.


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[majorvices]

I have said it before and I will say it again but the Mods and Admins here have a very challenging job. And, whether or not it is intentional or not, this forum is being split apart. and a huge part of that has to do with the LODO techniques and the "insistence" in the facts that it is indisputably the best way to brew beer .... period.

I applaud any new information that comes to the front but it seems like some folks need to validate their discoveries to the point of insistence that is simply not necessary. Then come in and point the fingers at other mods or admin because they feel their methods aren't getting the credence they deserve.

But the mods have to keep this a forum that is open to all and sometimes "highly advanced" methods can be insisted upon that defeat the purpose of the simple pleasure of brewing a great homebrewed beer with a "ZapPap" double buckeyt mashtun ... or (heaven forbid) batch spraging!

Now we have folks who are saying "I don't even feel comfortable posting here" and that is a serious problem. We, as mods and admins, do our best to keep the peace. I'm sure the LODO Zealots (that's a better word than Nazi) just want to point the fingers at the Mods and Admins for us not just letting them have free reign of the forum. But, FORTUNATELY it doesn't work like that.

Bryan, you need to write a book or open a brewery or something. Seriously. validation will be there.

[majorvices]

How can anyone who hasn't tried it even form an opinion on a subject anyways.  Sounds like a dead on example of confirmation bias.

Look dude, I don't have an opinion on LODO. I have an opinion on YOU. And you are a problem!

[The Beerery]

Well then you need to work though that and keep the bias against me out of the low oxygen bashing posts, your "mods have a hard time guise is a rouse."

I have a forum that needs ZERO modding and people are free to discuss any methods and have good discussions.  The mods and select few here are DRIVING this divide.

I have zero issues with anyone, this is stupid home brewing beer the internet for Christ's sake.


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[majorvices]

It's not a bias against you it is a reaction to your attitude. Which sucks.

[The Beerery]

It's not a bias against you it is a reaction to your attitude. Which sucks.

I wish I could say this was the first time you have taken to personal insults with me.  I would hope the AHA which you represent, doesn't share the same perspective. That's really off putting to members and brewers.

I don't have an attitude. Any attitude you perceive is all self driven.


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[majorvices]

Bryan, you are, as always, way over the top. Here's your very first post on this thread

"Don't play the victim here Denny. Since the DAY we brought information about oxidation forward you have been hellbent on trying to disprove modern brewing science."

I disagree with Denny all the time. About a good bunch of things. And never feel the need to respond to him that way. Not toward him or anyone else. You are the one with the vendetta, not me.

If you want to play the "you represent the AHA" card, fine. Go ahead. Modding this forum is not something I do for reward. If the AHA wants to remove me as mod I will step down.