Author Topic: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze  (Read 2110 times)

Offline Phil_M

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Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« on: June 05, 2017, 08:40:07 PM »
We'll see how this goes over...

So, here's the problem: I keep getting excessive amount of chill haze in my beers.

Some background info: I'm currently not using whirfloc, gelatin, or any other clarifying agents. Gelatin is a possible fix for this, but the goal here is to find alternatives. Whirfloc hasn't seemed to make a large difference in chill haze, just how clear the wort is going into the fermentor. This isn't an issue for me, so I haven't been using whirfloc.

I "cold crash" in a keg...when I cold crash at all. My beers are served between 52-55oF, and are still quite murky. Generally I'm using top cropping strains that floc really well, so at fermentation temps the beer brilliant, no discernible haze at all. Chill it to serving temps, instahaze.

While recent Maris Otter batches have had even more ridiculous amounts of chill haze, I'm having the same problem with Rahr pale malt.

Other than gelatin/finings, any other ideas on how to improve this? Letting it sit to settle is also something I wish to avoid.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 08:48:40 PM »
What's your water like?

Calcium helps with clarity.  Try lowering your SO4/Cl?

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 08:51:59 PM by JJeffers09 »
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Online The Beerery

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 08:52:02 PM »
We'll see how this goes over...

So, here's the problem: I keep getting excessive amount of chill haze in my beers.

Some background info: I'm currently not using whirfloc, gelatin, or any other clarifying agents. Gelatin is a possible fix for this, but the goal here is to find alternatives. Whirfloc hasn't seemed to make a large difference in chill haze, just how clear the wort is going into the fermentor. This isn't an issue for me, so I haven't been using whirfloc.

I "cold crash" in a keg...when I cold crash at all. My beers are served between 52-55oF, and are still quite murky. Generally I'm using top cropping strains that floc really well, so at fermentation temps the beer brilliant, no discernible haze at all. Chill it to serving temps, instahaze.

While recent Maris Otter batches have had even more ridiculous amounts of chill haze, I'm having the same problem with Rahr pale malt.

Other than gelatin/finings, any other ideas on how to improve this? Letting it sit to settle is also something I wish to avoid.

Yea, what changed in the process? Or is this just something in the past you would have just fined out?

Online The Beerery

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 09:07:20 PM »
Taken Verbatim from Kunze maybe some apply?
"4.6.2.3 Technological measures for improving colloidal stability

Some of the possibilities can to a large extent be achieved by technological measures. Moreover, the use of stabilizing agents is necessary to obtain good stability.

The technological measures include:
• Use malt from low nitrogen barley with a
fine husk: protein content less than 11 % ,
• use anthocyanogen-free barleys, low oxalate
content,
• long and cold germination, good corn modification,
• intensive final kilning,
• residual alkalinity in the brewing liquor below 5 °dH,
• separate the husks during milling, mash in separately (Kubessa process),
• no long protein rest,
• strive for a high attenuation limit,
• take care to obtain complete saccharification and iodine normality,
• not too extensive sparging of the spent grains(polyphenols)
• long and intensive wort boiling, make sure there is good protein precipitation (not more than 2 mg coagulable N/100 ml wort),
• control break formation
• acidification of the casting wort
(pH 5.1 -5.2),
• hop addition not too early - malt polyphenols
• keep oxygen away,
• complete separation of hot break, optimal
cold break removal,
• intensive aeration of wort for rapid commencement of fermentation,
• cold and vigorous fermentation, promoting so2 formation during fermentation
• cold lagering phase of at least 7d 0 °C before filtration to precipitate chill haze particles
• avoid contact with bare metal parts ( except stainless steel)
• avoid any contact with air, this includes:
- avoid creating turbulence by reducing speeds of movements
- Use degassed water for fore and post runs
- removal of air from the filter and dosing equipment and flushing with co2
- avoid any air pickup on the way to filling and beware of the smallest amounts
- use only completely pure co2 , beware of introducing air"

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 09:31:02 PM »
My water is totally unsuitable for brewing. I buy distilled, and build up from there using Bru'n Water.

I should point out it's definitely chill haze, not yeast. This particular beer is worse than average, but all my beers have some degree of chill haze.

Brian, two things stand out from your post. One is the most obvious, low oxygen brewing. However, incorporating that to the level I desire is a back-burner item as I have other priorities at the moment.

The other is over sparging/ensuring complete saccharification. While I shouldn't be over-sparking as I'm batch sparging, it's a possibility. Usually I employ longer mash rests, and those beers have been clearer than this one, but still not clear.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Online The Beerery

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 09:51:50 PM »
My water is totally unsuitable for brewing. I buy distilled, and build up from there using Bru'n Water.

I should point out it's definitely chill haze, not yeast. This particular beer is worse than average, but all my beers have some degree of chill haze.

Brian, two things stand out from your post. One is the most obvious, low oxygen brewing. However, incorporating that to the level I desire is a back-burner item as I have other priorities at the moment.

The other is over sparging/ensuring complete saccharification. While I shouldn't be over-sparking as I'm batch sparging, it's a possibility. Usually I employ longer mash rests, and those beers have been clearer than this one, but still not clear.

Are you BIAB by chance?

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 10:07:10 PM »
My water is totally unsuitable for brewing. I buy distilled, and build up from there using Bru'n Water.

I should point out it's definitely chill haze, not yeast. This particular beer is worse than average, but all my beers have some degree of chill haze.

Brian, two things stand out from your post. One is the most obvious, low oxygen brewing. However, incorporating that to the level I desire is a back-burner item as I have other priorities at the moment.

The other is over sparging/ensuring complete saccharification. While I shouldn't be over-sparking as I'm batch sparging, it's a possibility. Usually I employ longer mash rests, and those beers have been clearer than this one, but still not clear.

Are you BIAB by chance?

Was, back when I was using an electric system in the garage. The damp that caused (Even with the garage door open and a fan) made my tools rust...so it was sold off for a propane/mash tun outdoor setup. I currently batch sparge, recirculation is in the works.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Online The Beerery

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 10:09:40 PM »
My water is totally unsuitable for brewing. I buy distilled, and build up from there using Bru'n Water.

I should point out it's definitely chill haze, not yeast. This particular beer is worse than average, but all my beers have some degree of chill haze.

Brian, two things stand out from your post. One is the most obvious, low oxygen brewing. However, incorporating that to the level I desire is a back-burner item as I have other priorities at the moment.

The other is over sparging/ensuring complete saccharification. While I shouldn't be over-sparking as I'm batch sparging, it's a possibility. Usually I employ longer mash rests, and those beers have been clearer than this one, but still not clear.

Are you BIAB by chance?

Was, back when I was using an electric system in the garage. The damp that caused (Even with the garage door open and a fan) made my tools rust...so it was sold off for a propane/mash tun outdoor setup. I currently batch sparge, recirculation is in the works.

Ok,

Are you using low mash temps? High WTG ratios?

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 10:21:02 PM »
This last beer was 1.5qt/lb, mashed at 152oF.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 11:24:21 PM »
Did you ever notice an improvement on beers that did receive a cold crash prior to packaging or on batches that sat cold in a fridge for extended aging?

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 11:47:26 PM »
We'll see how this goes over...

So, here's the problem: I keep getting excessive amount of chill haze in my beers.

Some background info: I'm currently not using whirfloc, gelatin, or any other clarifying agents. Gelatin is a possible fix for this, but the goal here is to find alternatives. Whirfloc hasn't seemed to make a large difference in chill haze, just how clear the wort is going into the fermentor. This isn't an issue for me, so I haven't been using whirfloc.

I "cold crash" in a keg...when I cold crash at all. My beers are served between 52-55oF, and are still quite murky. Generally I'm using top cropping strains that floc really well, so at fermentation temps the beer brilliant, no discernible haze at all. Chill it to serving temps, instahaze.

While recent Maris Otter batches have had even more ridiculous amounts of chill haze, I'm having the same problem with Rahr pale malt.

Other than gelatin/finings, any other ideas on how to improve this? Letting it sit to settle is also something I wish to avoid.

What are the protein levels on the MO and Rahr from a lot analysis? A few years back there were some posts here about haze in MO beers, and I think Kai was one of the posters (I will let you search if you are interested). Many of the British Maltsters actually sell "Maris Otter Blend", which is MO blended with another low protein malt to drop the protein level below 11. This was started after warmer than usual summers in England resulted in higher protein MO, and they reacted to customer complaints.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 11:53:29 PM »
A few years back, when I was brewing more British beers, I definitely remember having occasional haze issues with some of the MO maltsters. Could be a contributing factor with your love of brewing bitters, Phil.
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 01:12:11 AM »
Yes, recently MO has had tons of protein. Supposedly Thomas Fawcett still sells straight MO, and that's what I've been using. Weirdly, the Rahr-based "American" Sparkling Ale I recently brewed is what was so hazy as to prompt this post. Perhaps TF isn't selling straight MO at this point.

And shame on anyone selling a blend as MO. The brewer/consumer should understand it's an agricultural product, and be able to adjust. (Or RDWHAHB, as I likely would.)

Yes, if allowed an extended aging regimen at temp then the haze drops out. However, this usually pushes me past the "freshness" level that I'm looking for, not being low oxygen and all. I've got my beers pretty much where I want them condition/oxidation wise, now if I can get the chill haze to drop clear I'll have things nailed.

 
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 03:15:42 AM »
Yes, recently MO has had tons of protein. Supposedly Thomas Fawcett still sells straight MO, and that's what I've been using. Weirdly, the Rahr-based "American" Sparkling Ale I recently brewed is what was so hazy as to prompt this post. Perhaps TF isn't selling straight MO at this point.

And shame on anyone selling a blend as MO. The brewer/consumer should understand it's an agricultural product, and be able to adjust. (Or RDWHAHB, as I likely would.)

Yes, if allowed an extended aging regimen at temp then the haze drops out. However, this usually pushes me past the "freshness" level that I'm looking for, not being low oxygen and all. I've got my beers pretty much where I want them condition/oxidation wise, now if I can get the chill haze to drop clear I'll have things nailed.

Muntons is upfront about it, they sell the blend and 100% MO (later is a premium).
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Dealing with Protein/Chill Haze
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 10:26:27 AM »
That comment was directed at resellers, not the maltsters. Too many homebrew shops don't provide the specs on the grain they sell.

Just look at if you wanted to go full beer geek and actually use a data sheet. But a full sack of Weyermann, get all the details. Buy 10 pounds from the LHBS? Good luck getting that info...
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.