[jeffy]

It's seems more that the newer generation of homebrewers is interested in general "maker" culture and not as much "I make beer" or "I make cabinets". Naturally that's a shallower engagement level by the sheer volume of different things to make. It does affect the discussions we have and the content that gets produced.

Personal pet peeve moment mostly unrelated to brewing-I'm very ticked off with the current "maker culture" because of this shallower engagement level. I've seen folks with a passion for a specific craft scratch the surface of the art/science of their craft, then get pissed off when they don't get hired or turn a profit. Frankly, it's insulting to those who devote their lives to perfecting their art/trade. It's like the whole technician/engineer thing. Sure, you can make great money as a technician, I certainly do. But the closer I get to my degree the more I realize how little I've scratched the surface of my field as a tech.

But this is brewing, a hobby for most on here. Not all want to devote that level of involvement/learning to a hobby, and that's fine. Hobbies aren't supposed to be stressful. I tend to go all in or nothing on hobbies, hence the devotion to brewing science and technical errata. I'm the same way with cars, my obsession has resulted in a nicely equipped garage and can do all the maintenance/repairs on my vehicles. By this time next year I may be working on turning that into a small business tuning (and eventually building) LS and small block Chevy engines. (Not having to pay a mechanic frees up money for tools AND beer!)

Ugh..... I think I've finally got to just say it, in as few words as possible............

Keith, Denny, I love you guys, but you know, you ain't perfect.

Derek, Bryan, I love you guys, but you know, you ain't perfect.

Me, I love myself, but I know I ain't perfect.

The rest of ya's, you're all alright, I love you all, too.

Those of us who are still left here have had to deal with a lot of crap.  We need to put an end to the crap.  I'll do my part if you'll all do yours.  Perhaps the best thing to do is to never ever talk about crap ever again.  Let's friggin talk about beer, dammit.

*group hug*

This. Let's just look past each other's flaws and just try and move on when someone rubs us the wrong way.

my passion for cars was ruined after a career in the auto industry. Be careful with what you wish for!

I hear that.  This is also the main reason I don't want to turn my perfectly good brewing hobby into work.

[santoch]

Don't forget, sometimes folks just burn out.  I know I did.

[majorvices]

my passion for cars was ruined after a career in the auto industry. Be careful with what you wish for!

Thankfully I only grow more passionate about brewing every day! I love my job. I am one lucky SOB!

As far as the original poster and others decrying the lack of "Advanced Brewing Methods" or "Lack of Brewing Science", I'm left scratching my head. We have a 20 page thread alone on Introduction to LODO brewing. We have very interesting information coming from Bryan, Big Monk, Experimental brewing podcast, Brulosophy, and pages of information you wouldn't have found here a year ago. It seems like many of you feel that there is a resistance to "advanced methods" and, as I have hammered home to ya'll over and over again - not the case. I have explained it thoroughly and won't delve into it again. History is well documented here.

I have advocated for a "Brewing Science" section or "Advanced All Grain" and I will go to the powers that be and request it again. I will reiterate that obviously the only real problem with this forum is the bickering AND lack of respect given to the mods and other members. I am not saying mods should be above other users but when members obviously stalk mods posts to create friction, it's a problem. And when other member stalk other members posts to question or berate (and I'm speaking from both sides of the spectrum) that is a problem too. And when members can't disagree with other members without the disagreement becoming unnecessarily heated. Those are the problems with this forum, not the lack of advanced topics or information.

Obviously I am not above the fray here but I am trying to swing the hammer to quell the division. Unfortunately my tactics where poorly executed and I will rethink them for the next time. And I really won't say anything else about it from here on out I really do promise. Dead horse officially beaten.

Comments are welcome here, and even disagreements are welcome. But we must keep them respectful from now on.

[weazletoe]

re.

I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time...my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems--that takes _real_ skill!

A big plus one from! This is exactly how I feel. I'm not a rich man and cant afford the best of everything. I don't have 4k lying around to drop on a shiny new electric HERMS. But, I built a very nice electric system for a couple hundred bucks. Did I use cheap Chinese PID's? Yes. But they work just fine and I paid $15 for them. I didn't have $160 to spend on a March pump. But my little $15 Chinese one works just fine for what I need it to do. So go ahead and be down on a brewer because he doesn't have an infinite money tree. But I can tell you one thing, by building it yourself and having to source parts on a budget, you know your rig inside and out. If it breaks, you know exactly how to fix it.  And, there's so much more satisfaction in drinkning a great beer that you made with your own equipment.

[Big Monk]

re.

I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time...my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems--that takes _real_ skill!

A big plus one from! This is exactly how I feel. I'm not a rich man and cant afford the best of everything. I don't have 4k lying around to drop on a shiny new electric HERMS. But, I built a very nice electric system for a couple hundred bucks. Did I use cheap Chinese PID's? Yes. But they work just fine and I paid $15 for them. I didn't have $160 to spend on a March pump. But my little $15 Chinese one works just fine for what I need it to do. So go ahead and be down on a brewer because he doesn't have an infinite money tree. But I can tell you one thing, by building it yourself and having to source parts on a budget, you know your rig inside and out. If it breaks, you know exactly how to fix it.  And, there's so much more satisfaction in drinkning a great beer that you made with your own equipment.

Threads going off the rails has ZERO to do with equipment.

[udubdawg]

re.

I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time...my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems--that takes _real_ skill!

A big plus one from! This is exactly how I feel. I'm not a rich man and cant afford the best of everything. I don't have 4k lying around to drop on a shiny new electric HERMS. But, I built a very nice electric system for a couple hundred bucks. Did I use cheap Chinese PID's? Yes. But they work just fine and I paid $15 for them. I didn't have $160 to spend on a March pump. But my little $15 Chinese one works just fine for what I need it to do. So go ahead and be down on a brewer because he doesn't have an infinite money tree. But I can tell you one thing, by building it yourself and having to source parts on a budget, you know your rig inside and out. If it breaks, you know exactly how to fix it.  And, there's so much more satisfaction in drinkning a great beer that you made with your own equipment.

Threads going off the rails has ZERO to do with equipment.

yeah I didn't understand that one.  Surely someone is not saying that pictures of someone's fancy brew rig makes people without such equipment feel unwelcome? 

And the whole insinuation that the equipment takes the place of skill was uncalled for.

[narvin]

re.

I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time...my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems--that takes _real_ skill!

A big plus one from! This is exactly how I feel. I'm not a rich man and cant afford the best of everything. I don't have 4k lying around to drop on a shiny new electric HERMS. But, I built a very nice electric system for a couple hundred bucks. Did I use cheap Chinese PID's? Yes. But they work just fine and I paid $15 for them. I didn't have $160 to spend on a March pump. But my little $15 Chinese one works just fine for what I need it to do. So go ahead and be down on a brewer because he doesn't have an infinite money tree. But I can tell you one thing, by building it yourself and having to source parts on a budget, you know your rig inside and out. If it breaks, you know exactly how to fix it.  And, there's so much more satisfaction in drinkning a great beer that you made with your own equipment.

We don't look down on you because of your equipment, man.  There are plenty of other reasons to choose from! 

[Stevie]

I don't think I've seen what Andy is referring to. I've actually seen the opposite where I recommend something cheap and the OP replies with a photo of their new Sabco.

[HoosierBrew]

I don't think I've seen what Andy is referring to. I've actually seen the opposite where I recommend something cheap and the OP replies with a photo of their new Sabco.

Same here. Though I've accumulated a fair amount of brewing equipment and gadgets over the years, it is fairly basic. Knowledge and basic equipment trumps (God I hate using that word) lack of knowledge and shiny objects. If pricey equipment was the barrier to better beer, the majority of craft beer wouldn't suck.


Edit - Moment of weakness. Should've kept the thought in parentheses to myself. Mea culpa.

Also, there's nothing against guys with fancy equipment whatsoever. I just don't see it being sold here as necessary for making good beer.

[Andy Farke]

re.

I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time...my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems--that takes _real_ skill!

A big plus one from! This is exactly how I feel. I'm not a rich man and cant afford the best of everything. I don't have 4k lying around to drop on a shiny new electric HERMS. But, I built a very nice electric system for a couple hundred bucks. Did I use cheap Chinese PID's? Yes. But they work just fine and I paid $15 for them. I didn't have $160 to spend on a March pump. But my little $15 Chinese one works just fine for what I need it to do. So go ahead and be down on a brewer because he doesn't have an infinite money tree. But I can tell you one thing, by building it yourself and having to source parts on a budget, you know your rig inside and out. If it breaks, you know exactly how to fix it.  And, there's so much more satisfaction in drinkning a great beer that you made with your own equipment.

Threads going off the rails has ZERO to do with equipment.

yeah I didn't understand that one.  Surely someone is not saying that pictures of someone's fancy brew rig makes people without such equipment feel unwelcome? 

And the whole insinuation that the equipment takes the place of skill was uncalled for.

I apologize if my comment came across that way--that was not my intent, although reading again I absolutely see how it could be seen as such. Mea culpa. It absolutely takes skill to use even the most advanced brewing equipment at its most full potential (and sometimes more skill, or different kinds of skill--I've seen friends brew on that stuff, and I _know_ it ain't easy), and my words cheapened the efforts of some of my fellow homebrewers.

On further reflection, my comments were projections from a bit of my own experience, too...I held off on doing anything with all-grain brewing for years because the top search hits every time I searched for it showed what (to me at the time) looked like huge, expensive, and complicated setups. And then I'd delve into a brewing forum and focus on the threads with pictures of huge brew rigs (it always seemed like nobody posted pics of their one-cooler batch sparge system). Some of that is on me and my own sensitivities, of course! I discovered batch sparging and fermentation temperature control, and the rest is history.

I now thankfully know there are many ways to brew, and that what I used to think was insanely complicated (like a semi-automated two-tier burner system) is actually on the relatively simple end of things by some standards. Nonetheless, it makes me very aware of how I present the hobby to others...I absolutely _love_ the techy, geeky side of brewing (right down to my homemade stir plate and supply of Ehrlenmeyer flasks), but I'll admit that I have to keep reminding myself that not everyone else has the interest or is in a position to pursue this hobby at that level.

[udubdawg]

thanks for the clarification, and, we're cool.

cheers--
--Michael

[weazletoe]

I think what I said was taken wrong. I just get the feel on some threads, and I'm not even talking about anything that's been directed at me. An example would be perhaps someone asking about a corona mil. They are on a budget and it's what they can afford. Seems like they'll get bashed for not buying a Barley Crusher, Monster Mill, etc....get bashed because they bought a two roller and not a three. My point is we don't all have the coin to buy top dollar. We would love to if we could, but we do the best with what we can afford. So, next time a guys posts about his $25 refractometer, instead of telling him what garbage it is, it's nice to hear a "way to go, you're gonna make beer no matter what you paid for it."  That's all my point is.

[Joe Sr.]

I rarely see bashing.  I do see that people have left.  I post less and visit less.  A lot of times, I visit a thread and the same few people are going at it back and forth.  It's tiring.  Go argue by PM.

I don't have enough time to brew as often as I like, much less read zymurgy.  But I think the value of the membership is more than the magazine, etc.  Someone else mentioned the lobbying.

Plus, if you've learned a lot here stick around and pay it back.  Not everything has to be super technical and new.

If we can filter out the bickering, there's a lot of good points made on both sides in the technical threads.  I've learned a lot.  I'm glad Derek (and Bryan) came back and I think anyone who was here at the time knows how skeptical Derek was.  That alone tells me there's something to low-oxygen brewing. Not to mention that I'm getting better foam.  It ain't hard, but it also ain't the only way to brew.

I'd like people to stick around, but as Santoch said sometimes people burn out.

[denny]

I rarely see bashing.  I do see that people have left.  I post less and visit less.  A lot of times, I visit a thread and the same few people are going at it back and forth.  It's tiring.  Go argue by PM.

I don't have enough time to brew as often as I like, much less read zymurgy.  But I think the value of the membership is more than the magazine, etc.  Someone else mentioned the lobbying.

Plus, if you've learned a lot here stick around and pay it back.  Not everything has to be super technical and new.

If we can filter out the bickering, there's a lot of good points made on both sides in the technical threads.  I've learned a lot.  I'm glad Derek (and Bryan) came back and I think anyone who was here at the time knows how skeptical Derek was.  That alone tells me there's something to low-oxygen brewing. Not to mention that I'm getting better foam.  It ain't hard, but it also ain't the only way to brew.

I'd like people to stick around, but as Santoch said sometimes people burn out.

I agree with all of that....

[mchrispen]

Plus, if you've learned a lot here stick around and pay it back.  Not everything has to be super technical and new.

Agreed. See some of you next week... unless you run away when you see me coming. I don't run too good.