Author Topic: "High End's" Message to Craft  (Read 5701 times)

Offline Stevie

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2017, 06:07:07 PM »
I was out of the country for the past 3 weeks so this is all news to me yesterday and today.  What I've read has never made any claims of quality concerning what's in the bottle.  All it seemed to indicate was, if you care about local/craft beer and you don't like the way the macros do business, this little up-side-down bottle lets you know the beer you are looking at is not owned by a conglomerate you may not wish to support.  Period.

Paul

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.
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Offline narvin

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2017, 09:54:07 PM »

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

Eh, the BA didn't start this war.  The only thing they're doing is pointing out that the advertising message coming directly from the big crafty brewers is half-truth, at best.  More power to them.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2017, 10:21:50 PM »

This is all well and good for those of us who are deep into the industry, but as always these moves are made for the "rest of the world" who don't care as much where the stuff in the can comes from. 

As with most things that go on a label, as several people have mentioned above, there will be an implied quality statement with the logo.  That's just how food labels work.  I'm a food scientist and there's a lot of stuff that goes on food labels and of course if it goes on a label it must be important right? That's how people's brains work.  The FDA doesn't regulate beer labels yet, but it's coming very soon.  We're already having to work on calories and nutrition facts labels. 

There's a lot of stuff out there that have nothing to do with quality, but crafty advertisers or just human intellect of "this must be different and special" turns into quality statements.  For example, if I say the words Black Angus, what do you think? Most people are going to think about a fancy downtown steakhouse like Ruth's Chris. Black Angus is a breed of cattle.  Not a quality designation.  There are three grades of meat, Select, Choice and Prime.  Choice is what you get in the grocery store, Prime is what you get in Ruth's Chris, but they are both still Black Angus.  When Hardees/Carl's Jr is advertising Angus Burgers they are banking on most people equating that with expensive steak.  Are they using Prime beef? Hell no, they are using Choice (or even Select) but people equate Angus with Prime. 

The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

Eh, the BA didn't start this war.  The only thing they're doing is pointing out that the advertising message coming directly from the big crafty brewers is half-truth, at best.  More power to them.


This, big time - to both these trains of thought.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2017, 02:09:21 PM »


The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

While I respect your profession as a food scientist and I agree with the "Angus Beef" argument (*to a point) you are only looking at this from one side of the coin and here is exactly why you are wrong: Big Beer is trying to make itself look like Craft. Even Wal Mart has gotten into the act making a beer brand that tricks the consumer into thinking they are drinking a craft beer and not clearly making a delineation that the beer is actually contract brewed by Wal Mart (for instance, Costco Does contract brews as well but it's under the "Kirkland" brand).

So, what you are basically saying is: you would prefer big money and big corporations to keep the consumer in the dark and you are fine with people being lead along like sheep with advertising, but a piece of information that lets people know they are drinking from a struggling independent brewery is a sham?

In the end, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves. There is no indication of quality by the BA logo but it does give you a piece of information that is valuable to both the consumer AND the business. It gives CRAFT breweries a way to separate themselves from "CRAFTY" brewing and big beer marketing.

*And, FTR, the difference between the "Angus Beef" label and the "BA" label is that the "Angus Beef" label is open to anyone whno buys Angus Beef. McDonald's has an Angus Beef burger. If McDonalds started opening up little hole-in-the wall BBQ places around the corner from your house, wouldn't you like to know? I sure would.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:16:00 PM by majorvices »

Offline ethinson

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2017, 02:46:25 PM »


The BA's selling point is "local and independent is better".. better how? Better for the economy, better business practices, better for your community etc etc.  Over time most people will turn that into "better quality" or "tastes better".  Is the BA trying to intentionally mislead people? No, I don't think so, but they are certainly taking advantage of how human emotions work to push their message.  In essence that's how all advertising works.  Is it meant as a quality statement? No, but in 5 years that's not what people will remember about it.  People automatically assume "better quality" and pay a premium for things like "Natural", "No Corn Syrup", "Free Range", "Dolphin Safe" "GMO Free" etc etc, all of which are unregulated and mostly meaningless statements (Organic is the only one certified by the government) and don't always (or sometimes ever) equate to product quality.  It's a shell game.. and it always has been.

While I respect your profession as a food scientist and I agree with the "Angus Beef" argument (*to a point) you are only looking at this from one side of the coin and here is exactly why you are wrong: Big Beer is trying to make itself look like Craft. Even Wal Mart has gotten into the act making a beer brand that tricks the consumer into thinking they are drinking a craft beer and not clearly making a delineation that the beer is actually contract brewed by Wal Mart (for instance, Costco Does contract brews as well but it's under the "Kirkland" brand).

So, what you are basically saying is: you would prefer big money and big corporations to keep the consumer in the dark and you are fine with people being lead along like sheep with advertising, but a piece of information that lets people know they are drinking from a struggling independent brewery is a sham?

In the end, it's up to the consumer to educate themselves. There is no indication of quality by the BA logo but it does give you a piece of information that is valuable to both the consumer AND the business. It gives CRAFT breweries a way to separate themselves from "CRAFTY" brewing and big beer marketing.

*And, FTR, the difference between the "Angus Beef" label and the "BA" label is that the "Angus Beef" label is open to anyone whno buys Angus Beef. McDonald's has an Angus Beef burger. If McDonalds started opening up little hole-in-the wall BBQ places around the corner from your house, wouldn't you like to know? I sure would.

I'm not saying that's what I prefer.  I'm saying that the logo doesn't accomplish what we want it to or what we think it will. 

The fight between small beer and big beer is very real.  That's a business thing. Monopolies and whatnot.

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.
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Offline narvin

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2017, 03:01:21 PM »

I'm not saying that's what I prefer.  I'm saying that the logo doesn't accomplish what we want it to or what we think it will. 

The fight between small beer and big beer is very real.  That's a business thing. Monopolies and whatnot.

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

That really has nothing to do with this logo. Again, it was AB Inbev that first made a commercial about making beer "the hard way" that wasn't fussy.  Now they want to buy craft brewers but hide the fact that they did, for their marketing purposes.

Craft has the connotation of small and has for a while, for better or for worse.  That ship has sailed.  This is just about a little bit of truth in advertising for all the Redd's Apple Ales, Shock Tops, and now Golden Road, etc.
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Offline narvin

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2017, 03:10:15 PM »
And, I'm pretty sure Yuengling would be free to use the logo if they wanted.  Not craft, just independent.
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2017, 03:45:57 PM »
This is certainly the best thing I have seen.  It matters to me, I can't wait to see that seal on the bottles I do purchase.  I am a part of the 81%
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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2017, 03:55:32 PM »
And, I'm pretty sure Yuengling would be free to use the logo if they wanted.  Not craft, just independent.

As long as they produce less than 6 million bbl./year, they certainly could.  https://www.brewersassociation.org/business-tools/marketing-advertising/independent-craft-brewer-seal/
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2017, 04:15:14 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuengling

They produce 2.8 million barrels, so they have plenty of room to grow.

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2017, 04:20:31 PM »

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

I don't totally disagree with you here but like Narvin I don't see this to have anything to do with logo. I will say that, in Huntsville, AL, I see a wide array of people from all walks of life in my tap room. From hipsters, to country folk to corporate professionals and families. Craft beer is reaching people in all walks of life, the "bearded-tattoo-hipster" thing is something InBev is trying to reinforce, but the BA logo doesn't do anything but tell you the brewery is independent.

I'll also add, I hadn't really intended this topic to be a "for or against" the BA's logo but a bout the ridiculous-winey-ass-cry-baby video I posted.

Seriously, if you haven't watched it, you should.

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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2017, 05:34:22 PM »

The fight between craft and non-craft is nonsensical and hypocritical and based on emontions and hurts craft more than it helps craft. Non craft drinkers are portrayed as dumb oafish neanderthals while craft drinkers are portrayed as elitist snobby hipsters.  Yes, those are both the far extremes but that's what's getting painted in these videos and super bowl commercials and we're all getting caught in those same brushstrokes.

Just my .02$.

I don't totally disagree with you here but like Narvin I don't see this to have anything to do with logo. I will say that, in Huntsville, AL, I see a wide array of people from all walks of life in my tap room. From hipsters, to country folk to corporate professionals and families. Craft beer is reaching people in all walks of life, the "bearded-tattoo-hipster" thing is something InBev is trying to reinforce, but the BA logo doesn't do anything but tell you the brewery is independent.

I'll also add, I hadn't really intended this topic to be a "for or against" the BA's logo but a bout the ridiculous-winey-ass-cry-baby video I posted.

Seriously, if you haven't watched it, you should.

I did watch it and I totally agree that it is ridiculous. 

I should take credit as well for derailing the topic a little... the pros/cons of the logo and the BA definition of craft vs noncraft are two separate topics and I have good and bad thoughts about both of those. 

How they are linked in my head is in essence the BA List of Craft Breweries is who will be eligible to choose to use the logo.  They are different things, but they are linked. 
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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2017, 06:32:58 PM »
This is certainly the best thing I have seen.  It matters to me, I can't wait to see that seal on the bottles I do purchase.  I am a part of the 81%

Yes. 81% of the people that took the survey.


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Re: "High End's" Message to Craft
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2017, 02:14:23 AM »
FWIW, I saw somewhere that Yuengling will be using the new BA logo on their beers.

My only concern with the logo is that it'll further wedge the idea that all "macro" beer is evil. Guinness is working with craft breweries, even collaborating on brews. Heineken doesn't seem to be doing anything "evil" either. Sapporo is another good brand that makes quality beer without having to resort to underhanded business practices. This is a small concern though, and it's better to stick it to those who aren't playing fair.
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