Author Topic: Beer staling prematurely?  (Read 7354 times)

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2010, 07:40:08 PM »
Quote
I can assure you that that little bubble of air has a pronounced oxidized impact on my big beers, in the MOST delightful way, and within a few weeks.  Develops luscious dark fruit and sherry notes.

Though this goes against everything I was ever taught about beer.

Didn't Kai say something about that recently, along the lines of the German malt character that seems elusive to create on the homebrew level is some kind of small-scale oxidation of melanoidins (or Maillard reaction products)?

Seems plausible to me since darker beers will have more Maillard products/melanoidins, and those are the types of beer that develop those desirable oxidation flavors, where paler beers just seem to get papery.

Don't know the chemistry behind it or if it's been researched; I have my doubts since defining "that rich German malt character that homebrewers can't seem to reproduce" is hard to describe and quite subjective.

Anyone else see what I'm describing?
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1791
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2010, 08:04:16 PM »
I talked to Kai  about it at the NHC as he was tasting my BW.  He said it made sense and was mentally constructing an experiment.  He said he knew of no material where research had been done.
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2010, 08:09:01 PM »
Ah, I knew I heard it somewhere.

I'm sure we'll hear if he does run the experiments and finds a conclusion.  I've found his papers very enlightening.  It's great to see someone testing out textbook theories at the homebrew level.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1791
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2010, 08:15:39 PM »
your reply of Maillard products/melanoidins fits all by big beers very well.  Don't know if you tried the BW I brought to the GC meeting but that is the beer I was discussing with Kai.
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline gordonstrong

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
    • View Profile
    • BJCP
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2010, 08:18:29 PM »
I don't usually drink 27% ABV beers before lunch.
Gordon Strong • Beavercreek, Ohio • AHA Member since 1997 • Twitter: GordonStrong

Offline bonjour

  • Administrator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1791
  • Troy, MI, 37mi, 60.9deg AR
    • View Profile
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2010, 08:19:10 PM »
;)  only 17%
Fred Bonjour
Co-Chair Mashing in Michigan 2014 AHA Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan
AHA Governing Committee; AHA Conference, Club Support & Web Subcommittees



Everything under 1.100 is a 'session' beer ;)

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 13853
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2010, 08:33:46 AM »
Didn't Kai say something about that recently, along the lines of the German malt character that seems elusive to create on the homebrew level is some kind of small-scale oxidation of melanoidins (or Maillard reaction products)?

Seems plausible to me since darker beers will have more Maillard products/melanoidins, and those are the types of beer that develop those desirable oxidation flavors, where paler beers just seem to get papery.

Don't know the chemistry behind it or if it's been researched; I have my doubts since defining "that rich German malt character that homebrewers can't seem to reproduce" is hard to describe and quite subjective.

Anyone else see what I'm describing?

Yeah, he posted that here after a discussion we had at NHC after tasting a doppelbock of his that had that "elusive German" quality to it.  I agree that it seems plausible, but I don't know of any research, either.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2010, 08:48:41 AM »
I'm not sure if Kai's referring to the same elusive "German element" or not but I recently did a blind tasting of six different examples of German Pilsners.

Bitburger
Paulaner
Warsteiner
Brooklyn Pilsner
Victory Prima Pils
Samuel Adams Noble Pils

While all of the beers were good, the German varieties have a "distinct taste" that I can't quite put my finger on. I want to say it's a hop spicyness but I think it's more than that. I want to say it's in the water. One thing is for sure, it's only present in the German examples.

I'm not sure exactly what the element may be that is responsible for this distinct taste...but inquiring minds want to know.
Ron Price

Offline redbeerman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1810
  • On the banks of the mighty Susquehanna in MD
    • View Profile
Re: Beer staling prematurely?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2010, 10:10:08 AM »
Ron and I did a blind tasting of Ofests as well with similar results.  Only the German examples exhibited this "taste".  The doemstic and homebrewed examples did not.
CH3CH2OH - Without it, life itself would be impossible.

[441, 112.1deg] AR

Jim